Pro Power - Anybody Run In Parallel w/a Generator

[dafish]

The question: Has anybody paralleled a Pro Power with a portable generator? (lets assume we all understand voltage and legs enough to get that right).

If this isn't obvious, rather than try to explain this for anybody unfamiliar let me start you here:

All About Paralleling Generators, Reviewing Multiple Parallel Kits & Gen Sets, 50 amp & 30 amp Cords (youtube.com)
Paralleled Duromax XP9000iH Dual Fuel Inverter Hybrid Portable Generators with One Propane Tank (youtube.com)

Why would you? Two reasons come quickly to mind:

1) Getting an empty EV off the side of the road can demand a LOT of power, 14KW would not be excessive.​

2) 7.2KW is not enough to support my house. 14KW would be enough.​

Bottom line: A Pro Power 7.2 can fully support any TT I know of, slowly charge an EV, and run most homes. Just not mine (or most folks running Geothermal homes). It's at least half the answer though, and these are pretty darn expensive (and loud) generators. Pro Power 7.2is a very nice alternative!

This almost certainly works, but I'm wondering if anybody has tried it yet?

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[Hullguy]

If f you are going to buy a generator why not buy one that will power the whole house? If you don’t have natural gas you can go for a propane option with an automatic transfer switch. You lose power and in 7 seconds the lights come back on and all you have done is wait.

 

[HammaMan]

Typically parallel inverter gens only need one of them to support it. Haven't tried w/ the PB's PPOB due to having sufficient power from it. First gen starts connected to parallel capable, which is then started.

 

[12Lariat21]

The key there is going to "Parallel Capable" The ProPower (From my knowledge anyway) does not offer paralleling.

In order to Parallel two separate power sources you need to match the voltage sign waves together (but separately) before you connect the two sources together. This is done by varying the voltage output and varying the speed/frequency of the output. So some rather sophisticated controls are involved there. You also need some source of load monitoring to prevent reverse power.

If you were to try to connect two separate sources together that are not perfectly matched you will get a short-circuit event, and without proper protections (fuses, breakers) you could ruin your equipment....so don't just try to connect two plugs together and run them...

 

[HammaMan]

In order to Parallel two separate power sources you need to match the voltage sign waves together (but separately) before you connect the two sources together. This is done by varying the voltage output and varying the speed/frequency of the output. So some rather sophisticated controls are involved there. You also need some source of load monitoring to prevent reverse power.

Parallel gens don't start separately then join, they're joined before either starts, then 1 starts, then the 2nd. As the 2nd comes online it syncs to what it already sees.

Bigger generators do start / normalize / and need either manual or automatic contact closing. Inverter parallel generators/invertors do not need this. They come online already connected to a live circuit. Grid tie inverters behave in the same manner.

 

[RickBullotta]

The question: Has anybody paralleled a Pro Power with a portable generator? (lets assume we all understand voltage and legs enough to get that right).

If this isn't obvious, rather than try to explain this for anybody unfamiliar let me start you here:

All About Paralleling Generators, Reviewing Multiple Parallel Kits & Gen Sets, 50 amp & 30 amp Cords (youtube.com)
Paralleled Duromax XP9000iH Dual Fuel Inverter Hybrid Portable Generators with One Propane Tank (youtube.com)

Why would you? Two reasons come quickly to mind:

1) Getting an empty EV off the side of the road can demand a LOT of power, 14KW would not be excessive.​

2) 7.2KW is not enough to support my house. 14KW would be enough.​

Bottom line: A Pro Power 7.2 can fully support any TT I know of, slowly charge an EV, and run most homes. Just not mine (or most folks running Geothermal homes). It's at least half the answer though, and these are pretty darn expensive (and loud) generators. Pro Power 7.2is a very nice alternative!

This almost certainly works, but I'm wondering if anybody has tried it yet?

Just buy a second Powerboost and tow it behind your other one.

 

[dafish]

Typically parallel inverter gens only need one of them to support it. Haven't tried w/ the PB's PPOB due to having sufficient power from it. First gen starts connected to parallel capable, which is then started.

agreed that’s the method. In theory. just Wondering if anybody had tried it. thanks, -d

 

[Hullguy]

Parallel gens don't start separately then join, they're joined before either starts, then 1 starts, then the 2nd. As the 2nd comes online it syncs to what it already sees.

Bigger generators do start / normalize / and need either manual or automatic contact closing. Inverter parallel generators/invertors do not need this. They come online already connected to a live circuit. Grid tie inverters behave in the same manner.

All you need is a lightbulb tied between the same phase. When you vary the voltage and cycles and they get close the light bulb starts to dim just before it goes out you tie the two generators together. This is how my Brother did it in Iraq to provide power for the troops

 

[HammaMan]

All you need is a lightbulb tied between the same phase. When you vary the voltage and cycles and they get close the light bulb starts to dim just before it goes out you tie the two generators together. This is how my Brother did it in Iraq to provide power for the troops

Yeah, the lightbulb trick is quite old and was used in all sorts of methods. Here's a hydro plant spinning up turbines and bringing them onto the grid.



And for comparison, here's 2 inverter generators connected via darwin double headed cord. They can be started and stopped as the inverter is self-synchronizing. This only works if the 'add-on' generator is parallel capable. Just about every inverter generator is parallel capable, but always double check to be sure otherwise if a non-parallel gen is fed 120v via a double headed or Y cord, it could just cook itself.

 

[dafish]

If f you are going to buy a generator why not buy one that will power the whole house? If you don’t have natural gas you can go for a propane option with an automatic transfer switch. You lose power and in 7 seconds the lights come back on and all you have done is wait.

A pretty common solution, and for me the back-up plan A pro/con game of course. Pro's are pretty obvious. Cons, for me:

1) It's married to this house only. I've family and friends that would otherwise benefit from the above plan, and I tend to share.
2) 7.2KW is still pretty slow for charging a stranded EV. Sadly I've already had to do it.
3) Somewhat expensive to do right.
4) I'm already wired with multiple 14-50's in the garage, so it's not only portable and scalable, it's easy to implement.


Still a reasonable approach.

 

[Samson16]

The question: Has anybody paralleled a Pro Power with a portable generator? (lets assume we all understand voltage and legs enough to get that right).

If this isn't obvious, rather than try to explain this for anybody unfamiliar let me start you here:

All About Paralleling Generators, Reviewing Multiple Parallel Kits & Gen Sets, 50 amp & 30 amp Cords (youtube.com)
Paralleled Duromax XP9000iH Dual Fuel Inverter Hybrid Portable Generators with One Propane Tank (youtube.com)

Why would you? Two reasons come quickly to mind:

1) Getting an empty EV off the side of the road can demand a LOT of power, 14KW would not be excessive.​

2) 7.2KW is not enough to support my house. 14KW would be enough.​

Bottom line: A Pro Power 7.2 can fully support any TT I know of, slowly charge an EV, and run most homes. Just not mine (or most folks running Geothermal homes). It's at least half the answer though, and these are pretty darn expensive (and loud) generators. Pro Power 7.2is a very nice alternative!

This almost certainly works, but I'm wondering if anybody has tried it yet?

I don’t have natural gas available for my house and I don’t have a decent spot for a large propane tank, so I run a 9300W duel fuel generator with a service panel interlock. I keep four full exchangeable propane tanks and a 5g gas can full along with the onboard tank during the season. I use an easy start for the 4 ton AC unit and don’t turn on the pool pump or dryer while on the generator. I can use the microwave or oven if need be, but cooking duties fall to the Weber Summit Kamado during emergencies
My PB is just in case and it looks so good in the driveway

 

[dafish]

A nice story, and I can add I'm 5 1/2 ton geo, meaning I have also have loop pumps to run, and softstart. I can low stage start the unit, but it goes into error state trying to move to high stage (soft start's don't support upstaging). And course I've not enough reserve to run the home.

That's with a 10KW sustained / 12KW surge generator.


However, back on point, if anybody has anything to add on running a ProPower in Parallel please chime in!

 

[Gros Ventre]

Unless the generators are designed to parallel, such as the generators that produce DC and then convert it to AC are, this is very dangerous. Specifically the load regulators need to have the same characteristic of voltage droop. If they do not have that a change in load can be taken on by one generator overloading it. Second the methodology of the actual synchronizing entails matching speeds of the two generators and then matching the sine waves. I have seen no mechanism on the market for this. You could have a fire while attempting to parallel. The reason the Inverter Generators can be paralleled is they are designed with regulators similar in droop characteristic and they can be paralleled on the DC side which only entails matching DC voltages.

 

[dafish]

Unless the generators are designed to parallel, such as the generators that produce DC and the convert it to AC are, this is very dangerous. Specifically the load regulators need to have the same characteristic of voltage droop. If they do not have that a change in load can be taken on by one generator overloading it. Second the methodology of the actual synchronizing entails matching speeds of the two generator and then matching the sine waves. I have seen no mechanism on the market for this. You could have a fire while attempting to parallel. The reason the Inverter Generators can be paralleled is they are designed with regulators similar in droop characteristic and they can be paralleled on the DC side.

Intereting. I assume you've noted the many testing links around showing parallels of different sizes being done while interconnected on the AC side. I don't recall at this moment how load dist is handled between dissimarly sized units, but it's for sure been done.

I've also come to believe any inverted based generator can be paralleled with paralle capable one by bringing the later online last.

Both of these things seem in disagreement with above, although I'm not honestly expert enough to state more than as an observation. I can say speed variation to obtain synch is something I believe does not apply to inverter generators. That was, to my limited knowledge, an old school way of synching, "walking in" was the term, old style generators and is NA herein.

MHO, and not to be treated as "fact".

 

[Gros Ventre]

This is flat out dangerous. Unless a generator is designed to operate in parallel and you have the installed equipment, you are playing with fire. If you are going to parallel on the AC side, you must be able to vary the speed of the generators independently of their load. You have to align the two sine waves nearly perfectly. If you miss one machine will force the other into synchronism, if there is a voltage difference that is big enough a fire can start. Then you run into load sharing. The two machines must share that load proportionately and with the same voltage droop ramp. While I know there is industrial equipment out there designed for this, I have never seen a portable generator so designed (other than Inverter Generators and they advertise this capability). I can say, having looked over my PB 7.2kW generator in some detail, it is not configured to be paralleled with another generator. We routinely parallel generators in the Submarine Force. The needed things to do so are just not present in the 7.2kW generator. This is dangerous.

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