Ramcharger: How (Can?) Ford Respond - A Discussion

[Samson16]

Does the 2.7 have a similar heat dump challenge?

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[BluePB]

I agree with virtually everything you've said. Let me add this to your thoughts:

I assume, you may not agree, that RAM will deliver this with a tow/haul and/or battery maintainer capability. Given the alleged 70x KW available and knowing 130kw is available via ICE/Gen, it's going to be a considerable period of very heavy very steep towing to be a problem. Here's how I See it:

175hp alone is a considerable load. More, would we agree 300hp easily makes the TFLT truck mountain test in their heaviest of half-ton tests? We's be short 125HP, or ~ 93KW. Assuming we start with a fully charged battery, and I expect to have that option, I'm seeing ~ 45 minutes of 300HP output.

Maybe not enough for something, and there is always the "figures lie and liars figure" train of thought, but hopefully we'd agree that's going to meet almost everybody's needs.

Or so think I anyway...

Almost, especially considering most half tons are used more like SUVs and few for serious towing. I don't disagree with the premise of reserving the battery energy in anticipation of a long climb. You have more faith than I do that the final product will have a drive mode that works exactly like you would want it to for this scenario. Also, how long do you want to run your 175HP gas engine at 175HP?

 

[Snakebitten]

I don't think I have ever heard similar issue with the 2.7, but then I don't think it would be common for a 2.7 to be in the same exact circumstance.

Not a slight on the 2.7
I've had one myself and used it to haul my little 17' toy hauler all over those passes in Colorado.

I look at the 3.5 Ecoboost as a motor that Ford designed that can simply create more torque than its cooling stack can manage.
I'm not really complaining, because I CAN access that torque on demand if I need or want it. But Ford didn't match the cooling stack up with its full power producing potential.

It's just the way it is. If I make a 3000 mile run from the Texas coast to Mancos Colorado, or Durango, or Ouray, or Lake City........ There will be a few miles, a tiny % of the trip, where I didn't get to be King of the Hill.

But with the Powerboost, I am King of the Boondocking spot while everyone else is stacked like sardines at the RV park.

 

[Samson16]

Well, my first car was a 1976 Ford Pinto handed down to me. I would roll down the windows and crank the heater full blast to keep the radiator from boiling over in the Houston summer traffic lol. I got this…

 

[Kodiak]

Well, my first car was a 1976 Ford Pinto handed down to me. I would roll down the windows and crank the heater full blast to keep the radiator from boiling over in the Houston summer traffic lol. I got this…

HA! I had one too. Probably about the same year. When we would drive around in the rain I would look out for puddles. If they could not be avoided, I would tell the passengers to press down with their feet on the floor, not hard enough to push your feet through to the road, but enough to keep the splash coming through to a minimum.

 

[dafish]

Almost, especially considering most half tons are used more like SUVs and few for serious towing. I don't disagree with the premise of reserving the battery energy in anticipation of a long climb. You have more faith than I do that the final product will have a drive mode that works exactly like you would want it to for this scenario. Also, how long do you want to run your 175HP gas engine at 175HP?

We're pretty much in synch. A few thougths:

Depends on how they cam the thing (I'd use a simulated atkinson cycle cam), but the Pentastar is ~300hp, so 175 is a pretty reasonable output. Something consistent with extended marine or generator output. As a rough rule of thumb, I get 3,700 RPM for that, so not unreasonable.

How long would I run it like that? I suppose for as long as I needed 300 continuous HP. Which would likely be never.

Now I'm taking great liberties with what they might be doing with load sharing,, the BMS, and etc, so this is all mostly spit-wadding numbers anyway.

However, lets get back on track: The idea here is to brainstorm how Ford might respond. I see two macro directions (you may see more).

1) Attempt to deliver a PHEV truck capable of extended operation, even heavy towing (relative to a half-ton)
2) Extend the in-town viability of PB and let the engine alone handle the extended use.

For the former are you suggesting an even more powerful engine than the Pentastar?

 

[dafish]

Well, my first car was a 1976 Ford Pinto handed down to me. I would roll down the windows and crank the heater full blast to keep the radiator from boiling over in the Houston summer traffic lol. I got this…

Me three! I was pinned in it in a multi-car wreck just about a week after the fuel tank rupture/fire expose on 60 minutes. Thing was crushed like accordian.

And yes, fuel was everywhere. Not happy memories. Car got towed home before I could get to phone and call home (hospital) Parents damn near had a heart-attach.

 

[dafish]

That's the intercooler louvers though. Not really sufficient help on a 6 or 7 grade in 95F ambients towing a parachute at 65mph.
First, you MUST have digital ECT values to see. Then lock out whatever gear ratios you need to reduce boost and spin that water pump up. The 3.5 does not mind the 3500-4500rpm range at all. It's not fragile.

If you see ECT approaching 235F and you know you got more climb to go, then get humble and slow down. That right side climbing lane is hard on the ego, but its the only choice you have sometimes. You'll see those ECTs drop almost instantly when you stop dumping that boost heat into the loop.

240's aren't that bad for a few seconds, but you are approaching Ford's protective mode intervention. On the Gen2 3.5, I think it set at 254F? I could be wrong. On our trucks I think it sets a little earlier, but is less drastic?

Yea, my experience w/3.5 eco's is it gains heat quick. Even towing what I would call "light" on a high temp day the things intercooler saturates and becomes ineffective. Timing gets pulled back, MPG drops like a stone, and it all goes to hell in an iterative downward spiral.

I really should add water injection, and or put it in better intercooler, but I only tow with it a few times a year so...

 

[BluePB]

For the former are you suggesting an even more powerful engine than the Pentastar?

Yes. I would trade off a smaller battery pack for more gas HP.

 

[dafish]

Yes. I would trade off a smaller battery pack for more gas HP.

I too had wished for a smaller battery pack, so I get it. in fact, in "my" perfect design (see post #1), there would be a direct drive planetary E-CVT. Skilling engine choices (it appears you two extensivly and exceptionally heavy in a very hilling climate), once I plated with discharge rates it became apparent there it was pretty easy to get too small in pack size.

However, all that becomes moot if they extend the PB concept and don't expect to run very far on batteries alone! A PB on steroids. A 100Hp motor with something like 20KW battery would still meet rebate requirements, deliver useable around town PHEV range. Then, yep, much more engine is gonna be needed.

I don't think they can do either with PB as architected now, but it sure would be an interesting option!

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