Ramcharger: How (Can?) Ford Respond - A Discussion

[Golf Cart Wizard]

EV FS Trucks & SUVs don't really work for most families as they are do it all vehicles for most families. EV trucks, like the Silverado with a 205 kwh pack end up needing environmentally catastrophic battery capacity that doesn't really get used 95% of the time, but then when you need it, it's still not enough to tow or road trip. You have weight, road damage, danger to other road users, long charge times, etc.

Electric motors are very good at a few things, they are GREAT at propulsion and efficient use of their energy. They are also luxurious as heck, smooth and quiet with amazing torque.

Batteries however are not good at dense energy storage. For example, a Model 3 battery pack at 75 kwh holds the equivalent energy of only 2.2 gallons of gasoline! It's just that the electric propulsion system is very efficient at using this energy and has the advantage that you don't need to 'leave a couple of gallons in the tank so you don't pick up air'.

The road damage part is probably the biggest thing people are missing IMO. There is no escaping the 4th power law. One Silverado EV does as much pavement damage as SIX regular F-150s. And who’s going to end up paying for all the road repairs?

You get the point right with the batteries being the problem. I’ve been working on golf carts my whole life (which come in both ICE or EV) and the reality is electric propulsion is superior to ICE in pretty much every metric, especially reliability and repair costs (except when manufactures make their EVs unnecessarily complicated to seem “futuristic” and “high tech”, but that’s another topic). The problem arises with how the electricity is supplied as you pointed out. The difference on golf carts is the energy requirement is low enough you can get away with stringing together a few lead acid batteries, or using a small enough lithium pack to where vehicle weight is equal to the ICE equivalent.

The size of battery required for an electric automobile is ultimately the problem with current technology, that’s why the idea of a BEV truck with an onboard generator is appealing. Even more so if the generator is designed to be modular so should it fail in 15 years it could be swapped out for newer better technology. This is probably wishful thinking though, it seems manufacturers are heading for total integration requiring original replacement parts plus programming to function.

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[Snakebitten]

I continue to worry that the first wave of EV battery "failures" (not detonation, just "My range sucks now. What's up with that?") will turn a lot of consumers off of EVs for reasons that aren't carved in stone.

Hey! It's that terrible reputation for battery degradation that makes it possible for folks like me to snatch a lightly used battery..... Oops, I mean EV, at a heavily depreciated bargain.

Seriously though, (my version of serious, which ain't much) most folks harping on the battery degradation aren't those that own EV's. So I wouldn't worry too much. Besides, there's nothing wrong, in my opinion, with the consumer scepticism. It's the industry's burden to convince.

Those that do own EVs and actually suffered the degradation malady, mostly post about which EV they will buy next time as a result of their experience and knowledge.

 

[amschind]

Hey! It's that terrible reputation for battery degradation that makes it possible for folks like me to snatch a lightly used battery..... Oops, I mean EV, at a heavily depreciated bargain.

Seriously though, (my version of serious, which ain't much) most folks harping on the battery degradation aren't those that own EV's. So I wouldn't worry too much. Besides, there's nothing wrong, in my opinion, with the consumer scepticism. It's the industry's burden to convince.

Those that do own EVs and actually suffered the degradation malady, mostly post about which EV they will buy next time as a result of their experience and knowledge.

I wouldn't even call it a malady, it's just that the battery is a wear item like the tires or CV shafts. It's just like the $3 mm Bertram sportfishers sitting for sale because the hull is worth $700k but the marine diesels are broken and cost $700k each to replace.

 

[BluePB]

It's important to note that cost to fuel these sorts of vehicles is very location and use dependent.

Where I live in TX, electricity prices are very low (getting hiked to 11 cents per kwh soon, still low).

To give you an idea of what it cost to fuel an EV truck here: the Ford Lightning travels 2 miles per kwh. Let's say I drive 100 miles per day and in my PB at 20mpg this costs me $18.25/ day in fuel at $3.65/ gallon fuel costs. In the Lightning 100 miles/ day requires 50 kwh at 11 cents per kw, Worth noting is that charging loses about 10% in heat, so I'll need to use 55 kwh at the meter to get 50 kw into my electric truck. So that's $6.05/ day in 'fuel' for an EV truck operating on batteries alone.

So clearly where I live, running on electricity day to day, saves me significant money. Also on my daily commute, I invoke no wear and tear on my ICE nor do I produce any tailpipe emissions.

However, a truck is still a truck to me and about 1x per week I need to drive 250+ miles, often hauling things. So, that one day a week I get a good break on my fuel bill until the batteries run low and then I just start burning fuel.

However, the advantages don't end there because my truck is getting the economy of an EV, no idle time, recharging on the downhills, less drivetrain losses, killer power, etc.

Where-as now while towing my truck gets about 13 mpg, I suspect that between starting off with a full battery charge and adding in the other advantages of an EV my towing economy will be north of 20 mpg in a truck.

I also have a generator for my home, my job or camping site.

As long as Stellantis gives us the option to charge the batteries using the ICE while parked, this product has nearly unlimited potential.

So here is the deal, on days where you stay exclusively on batteries and with current fuel prices you'd getting the equivalent of 60 mpg and this is the majority of most people's trips.
On days where we drive long enough, or tow heavy enough, we'd be on the ICE the fact remains that we'll get way better economy, way less ICE wear and maintenance AND NO LIMITATIONS. This alone often allows people to just have 1 car, instead of 2. This is an environmental and cost advantage.

Generally agree with all of your points here. I currently own and love a PHEV car, so suffice to say I'm a PHEV fan and familiar with the ins and outs. My car runs about 3 miles/kWh and my utility rate (off peak) is 10 cents/kWh, so my "fuel" cost is 3.3 cents per mile when I'm within the electric driving range, which is 95 percent of the time. The little bit of time I'm on gas, the hybrid drivetrain yields about 40mpg.

The only reason I might hesitate on a PHEV truck in my case is I don't use the truck as a daily driver, and the majority of its miles are towing miles. The trade-off you are making with a PHEV is a smaller gas engine than you would have in an ICE-only vehicle, counting on using boost from the battery when running in hybrid mode and needing acceleration or other high power demand. This is fine if you have some reserve energy in the battery (which is retained by design) and the high power demand is short lived. Once the power demand is reduced, the ICE can "catch up", recovering reserve energy into the battery, and then you can rinse and repeat all day.

Under continuous high power demand, for example driving at highway speed up a long grade, the battery gives all it can and then becomes dead weight. Now you are essentially driving a very heavy and somewhat underpowered ICE vehicle. It's easy to tell when reaching that point in my PHEV car, because the normally dormant or very quiet 1.5L gas engine is suddenly running at max power (around 5000 rpm), and the car becomes less responsive to throttle input. It has not happened to me personally, but I have read credible stories where the car was not able to maintain highway speed under extreme conditions, such as heavily loaded in mountain driving. It's a rare enough occasion for my use in the car (especially living in the flat Midwest) that it's a trade-off I'm willing to accept. In my application with the truck, which is primarily towing, often long distances and sometimes in hilly / mountainous terrain, it could be more limiting. It would come down to, can the gas engine make enough HP to meet those demands? Ram rates the gas engine/generator at 130kW which is 175HP. Is that enough? Maybe. I think I would wait and see others experiences before taking that leap.

 

[draggam01]

Indeed it does. This been hashed out at some length over time in several forums so I'm certainly not the inventor of this knowledge. Parroting it, as I recall (and I can probably find it again if somebody really wants it), the PB uses the ecoboost SCREW HDPP frame. I no longer remember (or care), the modulus numbers, but it's the frame with the highest modulus available for F-150 Ford.

I don't think with anybody with real knowledge disagrees PB has payload issues, right? Ford does not have more frame to use. Period. They cannot offer more weight capacity for they have no stronger frame.

More, and I'm stunned some (not you) don't get this, how in hell are you going add 700lbs or so of batteries to the dead center of that frame? It simply cannot be done and deliver any reasonable payload. Remember how some rambunctious folks were bending Raptor frames in the middle at first launch? That, but worse.

And if you don't add batteries than how do you deliver the power and EV range to compete with RC? Again, this topic of the thread. I think some read it as an attack on the PowerBoost, which wasn't the intend.

BTW, I now suspect by sharing my mistrust of Ford's support of PB I've sent folks down the path of defending PB, which wasn't my intent. My mistake. However, some of that was needed to be clear (IMO) PB architecture can't be grown to compete. I believe it will take the lightning chassis to compete, but I'll bet my stated that in the opening post sent some off track. My fault!

As battery power density changes would upgrading of existing batteries to the truck (without adding additional weight) increase total miles? My guess would be no, because the software would think the batteries have the old power density. Its just interesting because batteries continue to improve.

 

[Snakebitten]

As battery power density changes would upgrading of existing batteries to the truck (without adding additional weight) increase total miles? My guess would be no, because the software would think the batteries have the old power density. Its just interesting because batteries continue to improve.

You are correct.
It requires updated BMS if you alter the battery pack in any way that doesn't match the BMS assumptions.

But it can be done. Nissan has done exactly that with warranty claims on 30KWH batteries that were replaced with 40KWH batteries. It was cheaper to replace the failing battery with the current model (in production) battery than to source an older (out of production) battery.

 

[draggam01]

You are correct.
It requires updated BMS if you alter the battery pack in any way that doesn't match the BMS assumptions.

But it can be done. Nissan has done exactly that with warranty claims on 30KWH batteries that were replaced with 40KWH batteries. It was cheaper to replace the failing battery with the current model (in production) battery than to source an older (out of production) battery.

That is definitely interesting to know. Let's hope my batteries don't fail soon and maybe the power density of batteries will significantly change. For now, I am ok with the benefits that I am getting with this hybrid system.

it will be interesting to see if this Ramcharger will live up to its stated specs.

 

[dafish]

As battery power density changes would upgrading of existing batteries to the truck (without adding additional weight) increase total miles? My guess would be no, because the software would think the batteries have the old power density. Its just interesting because batteries continue to improve.

I'm going to respectfully disagree with your hypothesis and Snakes answer

Let me preface this by stating I don't program or know excessive detaiis about BMS's . That said, I'm relatively convinced that as regards range, max and min battery levels and related they are almost excusively gated by voltage. Certainly there are many other factors, things like battery temperature , charge rate, and etc.. but should one swap a larger battery pack that was similar battery chemistry, I believe you would instantly get the range and the car would not care ( or know).

In fact, there are already Tesla replacement packs that are higher density. I don't know much about the details so don't really know if that's supporing my thought or not, just sharing.

Call this something between a guess and an opinion - I'm not convinced I know BMS function well enough to be calling this a quality answer.

 

[dafish]

As a general statement it's important to know that managing battery degradation is pretty well understood, but poorly known. I could ask 20 people what they thought the peak charge level to delivery minimal degredation and few would get it right. Fewer still would be able to point to the data and science as to why.

Next. a common LION battery can be expected to live for 1500 cycles. In my Model Y that would be ~ (3m/Kw * 75Kw * 1500) = 337,000 miles.

Finally, one needs to be aware of both the price reduction of batteries as well as the emerging technologies.

Each of these is a war and peace discussion, but let me say this: I'm relatively up to speed on these, and I have exactly zero concerns about EV battery longevity and replacement costs.

I do wish RAM was using LFP battery's, but that's another discussion too.

all the best to all!

-d

 

[dafish]

Under continuous high power demand, for example driving at highway speed up a long grade, the battery gives all it can and then becomes dead weight. Now you are essentially driving a very heavy and somewhat underpowered ICE vehicle. It's easy to tell when reaching that point in my PHEV car, because the normally dormant or very quiet 1.5L gas engine is suddenly running at max power (around 5000 rpm), and the car becomes less responsive to throttle input. It has not happened to me personally, but I have read credible stories where the car was not able to maintain highway speed under extreme conditions, such as heavily loaded in mountain driving. It's a rare enough occasion for my use in the car (especially living in the flat Midwest) that it's a trade-off I'm willing to accept. In my application with the truck, which is primarily towing, often long distances and sometimes in hilly / mountainous terrain, it could be more limiting. It would come down to, can the gas engine make enough HP to meet those demands? Ram rates the gas engine/generator at 130kW which is 175HP. Is that enough? Maybe. I think I would wait and see others experiences before taking that leap.

I agree with virtually everything you've said. Let me add this to your thoughts:

I assume, you may not agree, that RAM will deliver this with a tow/haul and/or battery maintainer capability. Given the alleged 70x KW available and knowing 130kw is available via ICE/Gen, it's going to be a considerable period of very heavy very steep towing to be a problem. Here's how I See it:

175hp alone is a considerable load. More, would we agree 300hp easily makes the TFLT truck mountain test in their heaviest of half-ton tests? We's be short 125HP, or ~ 93KW. Assuming we start with a fully charged battery, and I expect to have that option, I'm seeing ~ 45 minutes of 300HP output.

Maybe not enough for something, and there is always the "figures lie and liars figure" train of thought, but hopefully we'd agree that's going to meet almost everybody's needs.

Or so think I anyway...

 

[Samson16]

Apologize for the pedestrian observation but once I get to the campground for the night I need both fuel and a charging station so I can go another 300mi the next day. Boy I hope I find one or I need to pay extra for hookups which defeats the AC power on board usefulness. It’s seemingly little things that become deal breakers. Can the ICE charge my HVB and run my RV? Then I at least can go get gas again in the morning. Is it nice and quiet running 2600RPM all night? The PB has proven to be a smash hit success for boondocking.

 

[dafish]

Apologize for the pedestrian observation but once I get to the campground for the night I need both fuel and a charging station so I can go another 300mi the next day. Boy I hope I find one or I need to pay extra for hookups which defeats the AC power on board usefulness. It’s seemingly little things that become deal breakers. Can the ICE charge my HVB and run my RV? Then I at least can go get gas again in the morning. Is it nice and quiet running 2600RPM all night? The PB has proven to be a smash hit success for boondocking.

Howdy!

Can the RC do above? Easily. BTW, campgrounds are starting to exclude EV's for charging. That for a few reasons, but I don't particularly blame them. That said a guy could probably charge at say 20 amps and likely not create a problem for anybody, and over 12 hours that's close to a full recharge.

 

[Snakebitten]

The Nissan Leaf is a very basic EV by the current crop of EV's on the market.

Yet the BMS for the high voltage battery is incredibly sophisticated. I'll give you just one example.....

This is a screenshot (below) from an app that a guru wrote for anyone considering purchasing a Leaf. (2011-2023)
It allows you to plug into the OBD port of a Leaf that you are considering, so that you can see the REAL health of the HV battery. It pulls all this data real time from the BMS and PCM.

The bar graph is a visual live representation of each of the 96 cells that make up the 48 modules of the 40KWH version of the Nissan Leaf battery. The 13mv value represents the current delta between the lowest voltage cell VS the highest voltage cell. (the lowest at this instant is 3.693V & the highest is 3.706V)

The cells that are Red or currently being "shunted" by the BMS to bleed off voltage. The Blue cells are not being shunted. So the BMS is always intervening to keep ALL the cells within a target delta between the weakest cell and the strongest cell.

When Nissan performs a warranty battery replacement and the replacement battery is not EXACTLY the same battery architecture, the BMS will not be able to see that new battery as a different architecture. If it's different in some structural way, the BMS can't accurately perform its duties. In the example above, it must have exactly the same cell<>module configuration. The shunting mechanism (cell balancing) must match the BMS software expectations.

I'm only pointing out a single instance, or example of how specific the BMS hardware, firmware, and software are in regards to the the battery it is mated to.

It IS absolutely possible to change battery architecture and/or size. But the BMS, at the very least, might require modification to accommodate that change.

 

[Samson16]

Howdy!

Can the RC do above? Easily. BTW, campgrounds are starting to exclude EV's for charging. That for a few reasons, but I don't particularly blame them. That said a guy could probably charge at say 20 amps and likely not create a problem for anybody, and over 12 hours that's close to a full recharge.

The RC can recharge itself easily while providing 125/30 to the RV without high revs? Nice
Negligible fuel drain too? Double

 

[dafish]

I completely agree that if the architecture changes there is no doubt. If it does not was my point. EG: many 14500's are now available with substantially higher KWH. If a matching cell qty chemistry was used with only greater capacity I sorta think the car would never know. Maybe.

But only then. Change things and we agree it's firmware update time at least.

And I still insist I'm only guessing.

BTW, Leafspy by any chance?

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