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On going problem

Gros Ventre

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To be fair, I don't have a voltmeter on my system and I'm not into the programming world so I don't see the kind of stuff you've posted. I have hand checked my truck wth a Digital Volt-Ohm Meter periodically, always seeing that 12.6 VDC...
But I just wonder if putting so many trucks out in the field meant that a bunch of batteries sat "on the shelf" with attendant opportunity for untoward chemical reactions while standing. Think about a battery where some 95% of the active material was plated over with impurities... At no load it'd still give you a voltage reading seeming to be just fine. But put any kind of load on that battery and its voltage would plummet like a rock... Just wondering...
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Snakebitten

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If all I had to go by are the OBD Pids for 12V SOC, it could be misleading.

Fords algorithm for SOC obviously doesn't line up 1:1 with a simple static voltage chart.

The battery monitor (Bluetooth Voltmeter) is simply stating SOC from the traditional 12V AGM chart, so oddly enough sometimes you will see 2 different values for SOC between Ford's internal battery management algorithm VS external volt meter.

This morning, just seconds before disturbing the truck by approaching it with FOB in pocket:

61% SOC
12.48V sleeping truck

Ford F-150 On going problem Screenshot_20230526_095554_Battery Monitor


PID (BMS) SOC 77% (VS 61%)
A bit optimistic comparatively, but once the truck is started, how can I argue? The voltage is 14.4 and I couldn't possibly know what the battery's voltage was before the truck started.

Ford F-150 On going problem Screenshot_20230526_095801


Note Above: charging amps is 13

Below:
By the time I've arrived at work (~40 minutes) the BMS SOC is 81% and the charging Amps are pulled way back to 2amps

Ford F-150 On going problem Screenshot_20230526_104506


4 hours later leaving work.
Bluetooth voltmeter 83% SOC 12.54 static volts

Ford F-150 On going problem Screenshot_20230526_144334_Battery Monitor


Start the truck and check PID
SOC has been dropped from 81% when I parked to 76% according to Ford logic. Note that even Ford thinks a good shot in the arm with 30amps of charging amps is called for. (short term, I assure you)


Ford F-150 On going problem Screenshot_20230526_140714



Arrive home and BMS states SOC is 82%. I shut down the truck, walk away, wait for truck to turn off convenience features, and check Bluetooth voltmeter.

Ford F-150 On going problem Screenshot_20230526_150929


They almost agree at this moment and circumstance. :)

Ford F-150 On going problem Screenshot_20230526_151917_Battery Monitor
 

HammaMan

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Okay, regarding my 'economical' LFP test -- I had thought it was no good because the battery arrived with the cells SEVERELY out of balance. To rectify this, I used one of my lab power supplies to connect it up charge the batt at precisely .01 amps. .02 amps would over volt one of the full cells and it appears this BMS only uses resistors to basically consume current destined for a full cell. In an attempt to try and eat the voltage in the higher charge cells, I connected a 4 amp load for 30 minutes 4 times during this balancing procedure and then feed it as much power as it could eat at 1 amp until it tripped cell OVP (it kept slowly climbing higher and higher so I knew it was out of balance). This is what happens when you rely on pre-made LFP batts. There's no way to top balance them and you're subject to whatever shitty BMS they put in there. After literally a week of playing with this thing (actual time spent on it was ~1hr in total), I was finally able to get the battery fully charged and will put it back into the truck to try and use it again. I put the battery in the freezer overnight and it appears to not have any low-temp charging protection -- only over temp.

Now that it's actually charged (previous SOC based on voltage was only about 65% or so), I will try the tests again to see what it can do. Previously the BMS would trip charging current once it hit 13.8v. Now that it's fully charged it will eat its full 14.6 volts without tripping due to cell OVP. This little guy is only a 30ah LFP, which to put into a context against AGM tech, it's basically equivalent to a 60ah AGM -- roughly just over 8x that of the aux batt in the truck.

Now the first thing I did when I got this batt was to buy another aux batt box for the truck that I could completely gut / modify to hold this thing w/ the lid on -- it was a success. Though it needs a little work to get the terminals in place because it consumes most of the box. Personally I wouldn't be opposed to using a 4" 8ga jumper on the positive (it's got some bulk due to its cover). The ground side should be able to connect directly. I didn't fool with actually doing a boxed up install as it would have been a waste of effort had the batt itself not be up to the task.

Will update as things progress.
 

powerboatr

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OMG thats a huge amount of intel
ford needs to be touching base.

impressive is the word

now for my non powerboost i changed my SOC to 95% in forscan and ford put in the required agm battery.....unless i do dumb stuff like open and close doors 50 times or run tailgate a bunch when i wash her, the truck has stopped the deep sleep stuff flat out

there is so much going on in these trucks, i am amzed each time someone points out its like a nasa launch non stop
thanks mr. snakebitten (y) (y) (y)
 

EricR

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Yep... Like I said, No problemo, No peeps, no sleeps... Has just operated as programmed, I haven't fiddled with the programming.
Thankfully, the same is true with my 2021 Job-1 Lariat PB.

It is 100% stock and it too just works like it should - including OTAs.

The battery is original and the truck even spent 3 months on chip hold after being built in February 2021.

Yet I know many have had batteries replaced or have ongoing battery related issues.

This leads me to agree with your thought that the manufacturer of these under-the-hood 12V batteries has (had?) a quality control problem.

So far at least, it seems my truck came with one of the good ones.
 
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Jimi

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I've monitored the 12V battery SOC and battery charging strategy to what some might call obsessively.

I don't know battery chemistry and maximum charge rates or all the other specifications for Lion/LifePo4/AGM etc.....

I just KNOW what the Powerboost is doing with the AGM and the small Hybrid Battery. I have insane amount of data and history now.

Whatever 90-100% of charge is on a 12V AGM battery is, it appears Ford's management/charging strategy is intentionally aiming to stay away from. Instead it seems to prefer it dancing between the mid-high 70's, and will back off to almost no charging if it gets much over 85%.

Note that I have that Forscan edit, whatever it actually does, set to 95%

I don't think the truck goes into it's Jeckyl/Hyde behavior at 75% SOC or above. So I don't experience the deep sleep or erroneous error messages or the alarming alerts. But the risk of a truck parked a few days or being disturbed (woken up) multiple times that was parked at 75% SOC to begin with? Especially if it's already an "injured" AGM.

I've caught mine below 12.3V on multiple occasions. Simply because it hadn't been driven yet that day, or I had been messing around with it (maintenance, cleaning, installing options) which was keeping it "awake". I don't know exactly what Voltage is the Jeckyl/Hyde threshold, but 12.2V is where I draw the line. If I catch it there, I either start the truck and let it sit (Powerboosts are awesome in this state) or I throw a charger on it that night and let it do it's AGM smart charge routine.

Some folks despise any of this being necessary, and I don't fault them a bit for feeling that way. But it doesn't bother me that much since I find it both fascinating and a challenge to see if I can keep this factory battery healthy enough to get a couple of years out of it.
Thanks for the insight Snakebitten
 

PaulGrun

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If all I had to go by are the OBD Pids for 12V SOC, it could be misleading.

Fords algorithm for SOC obviously doesn't line up 1:1 with a simple static voltage chart.

The battery monitor (Bluetooth Voltmeter) is simply stating SOC from the traditional 12V AGM chart, so oddly enough sometimes you will see 2 different values for SOC between Ford's internal battery management algorithm VS external volt meter.

This morning, just seconds before disturbing the truck by approaching it with FOB in pocket:

61% SOC
12.48V sleeping truck

Screenshot_20230526_095554_Battery Monitor.jpg


PID (BMS) SOC 77% (VS 61%)
A bit optimistic comparatively, but once the truck is started, how can I argue? The voltage is 14.4 and I couldn't possibly know what the battery's voltage was before the truck started.

Screenshot_20230526_095801.jpg


Note Above: charging amps is 13

Below:
By the time I've arrived at work (~40 minutes) the BMS SOC is 81% and the charging Amps are pulled way back to 2amps

Screenshot_20230526_104506.jpg


4 hours later leaving work.
Bluetooth voltmeter 83% SOC 12.54 static volts

Screenshot_20230526_144334_Battery Monitor.jpg


Start the truck and check PID
SOC has been dropped from 81% when I parked to 76% according to Ford logic. Note that even Ford thinks a good shot in the arm with 30amps of charging amps is called for. (short term, I assure you)


Screenshot_20230526_140714.jpg



Arrive home and BMS states SOC is 82%. I shut down the truck, walk away, wait for truck to turn off convenience features, and check Bluetooth voltmeter.

Screenshot_20230526_150929.jpg


They almost agree at this moment and circumstance. :)

Screenshot_20230526_151917_Battery Monitor.jpg
You know, this all seems pretty much as one would expect - great data Snake, as always.
I would say that the difference between Ford’s SOC values and those of the Bluetooth device are because of differences in how those numbers are derived. As we know, they are taken from tables. And as you point out the Ford tables are very likely much more complex than those built into the Bluetooth device. Among other things, the Ford algorithm probably has access to more input data than simply voltage, such as ambient temperature and so forth. So to me, I would say there’s very good agreement between the two.
All the rest makes good sense too, particularly the SOC values arriving at work vs leaving work, given that those numbers are probably a straightline extrapolation based on voltage since the truck was idle long enough to cause it to re-calibrate the current SOC. BTW, you only work a four hour day?? :)
Sure sounds to me like it’s doing everything it should be doing. Remind me again - is your target SOC still set at 95%?
tThanks for chasing all this down … good stuff Maynard.
 

Snakebitten

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@PaulGrun

Yes sir, Forscan edit using the 95% value.
And I absolutely agree that Ford's internal (pid) SOC value is taking into account far more data points than the simple little voltmeter.

Oh, the 4 hour work day?
That was 4 hours of on campus of 1 location. We have between 30 & 40 locations at any given time. And we are open for business 24/7/365

I have never seen us closed for a single moment in the 25 years I've been there.

But not really complaining since usually I get to come and go as I please.
Although NOT today!
I just checked into some Holiday Inn in Mississippi I think? I left coastal Texas around 11 this morning driving a Chevrolet to Birmingham. 😳😳😳🤣
It was pre-loaded with everything I will need tomorrow, and it is fairly comfy. I'll try to stay positive. 😁

Ford F-150 On going problem 20230529_174643
 

thebigdu

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@PaulGrun

Yes sir, Forscan edit using the 95% value.
And I absolutely agree that Ford's internal (pid) SOC value is taking into account far more data points than the simple little voltmeter.

Oh, the 4 hour work day?
That was 4 hours of on campus of 1 location. We have between 30 & 40 locations at any given time. And we are open for business 24/7/365

I have never seen us closed for a single moment in the 25 years I've been there.

But not really complaining since usually I get to come and go as I please.
Although NOT today!
I just checked into some Holiday Inn in Mississippi I think? I left coastal Texas around 11 this morning driving a Chevrolet to Birmingham. 😳😳😳🤣
It was pre-loaded with everything I will need tomorrow, and it is fairly comfy. I'll try to stay positive. 😁

20230529_174643.jpg
Try some Forscan on that thing and let us know what happens....
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