How is the PB more powerful?

[STM]

That much out of that little thing? Really? Why does my engine turn on, the second and I do mean SECOND I hit the gas after pulling out of my driveway? I dont hammer it, just typical neighborhood driving...

When you get out of your driveway, chances are, the ICE doesn't turn on because the battery depleted but because you are asking for more torque / power than the electric motor can provide...

If the battery is topped off and after you back out of your driveway, you put the truck in drive and really feather the gas pedal, you can probably keep going on electric only..

As others have mentioned, the PB is not designed as an EV but as a rather powerful ICE truck with the electric boost..

Currently I am in a rental Ram 1500 and I can tell you all the ways in which I am missing my PB!

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[RickBullotta]

430hp and 570tq*

*for the first five feet of travel.

Um, no. It'll run a 1/4 mile quite nicely thank you, leaving a Raptor behind.

 

[amschind]

Using my Kindergarten math

PB has a 47hp motor = 35kW motor
PB has a 1.5kW/hr Li-ion Battery

1500W for an hour
3000W for 30min
.
.
.
90kW for 1min

35kW motor for 2.57min hypothetical one time use full charge to meltdown.

14 second quarter mile pull? Easy peasy.

That's the potential from the battery, but in practice Ford limits the SoC to 40-60%. That means that the usable capacity is 1.5 kWh*0.2=0.3 kWh. 0.3 kWh/35kW=0.008571hr*3600s/hr=30 seconds at max power draw if starting at "full charge". Still, that's more than enough to accelerate a load up to highway speed while towing. Ford's SoC limits are, in my opinion, overly directed at avoiding warranty claims. The benefit of this battery is its small size: all batteries are wear items and when they crap out, they need replacement. If the value of the vehicle IS the value of the battery, then when it loses too much power to get its owner around, it takes the entire vehicle with it. Right now the PB batteries can be had on ebay for $1000: it's expensive, but still worth replacing vs junking the truck. As a result, I'd be thrilled if we can find a fix that allows for a 20-70% SoC, which would triple the usable capacity from 0.3 to 0.75 kWh without dramatically shortening the battery's life.

DoD vs lifespan

 

[JJSnell]

That's the potential from the battery, but in practice Ford limits the SoC to 40-60%. That means that the usable capacity is 1.5 kWh*0.2=0.3 kWh. 0.3 kWh/35kW=0.008571hr*3600s/hr=30 seconds at max power draw if starting at "full charge". Still, that's more than enough to accelerate a load up to highway speed while towing. Ford's SoC limits are, in my opinion, overly directed at avoiding warranty claims. The benefit of this battery is its small size: all batteries are wear items and when they crap out, they need replacement. If the value of the vehicle IS the value of the battery, then when it loses too much power to get its owner around, it takes the entire vehicle with it. Right now the PB batteries can be had on ebay for $1000: it's expensive, but still worth replacing vs junking the truck. As a result, I'd be thrilled if we can find a fix that allows for a 20-70% SoC, which would triple the usable capacity from 0.3 to 0.75 kWh without dramatically shortening the battery's life.

DoD vs lifespan

Or even a larger capacity one, making it a true Hybrid.
Can you imagine 30MPG?

 

[amschind]

Or even a larger capacity one, making it a true Hybrid.
Can you imagine 30MPG?

That's what they did for the Aviator hybrid, which is globally a better powertrain. 2x size electric motor, high output 3.0L V6 (basically a juiced 2.7L). I still think that the 2.3L I4 would be a better fit in one of its higher output configurations IF paired with the bigger engine on the Aviator, but that's a luxury vehicle so they are competing on power moreso than mileage. But backing up, the bigger electric motor DOES require a bigger battery, though perhaps not the 10x larger battery found in the Aviator. Don't get me wrong: more electric power isn't a bad thing, it's just heavy but more importantly, it is a wear item with a high likelihood of totalling the vehicle with normal wear/depreciation.

 

[JJSnell]

That's what they did for the Aviator hybrid, which is globally a better powertrain. 2x size electric motor, high output 3.0L V6 (basically a juiced 2.7L). I still think that the 2.3L I4 would be a better fit in one of its higher output configurations IF paired with the bigger engine on the Aviator, but that's a luxury vehicle so they are competing on power moreso than mileage. But backing up, the bigger electric motor DOES require a bigger battery, though perhaps not the 10x larger battery found in the Aviator. Don't get me wrong: more electric power isn't a bad thing, it's just heavy but more importantly, it is a wear item with a high likelihood of totalling the vehicle with normal wear/depreciation.

Well we all have 3.5L's and usually most of us... I def do... get extended warranties. I would say this falls under drivertrain... does it not?

 

[Samson16]

globally a better powertrain

I don't understand the basis for this declarative statement.

 

[HammaMan]

Probably the most oddball logic I've found with the PB is that when in park with the ICE running, if you stab the throttle, the e-motor assists in 'revving' the engine and then eats the flywheel / engine inertia regen'n it into the battery. Since the motor is connected when it does this, I guess it's eating offsetting its clutch's and rotors inertia too?

 

[amschind]

Well we all have 3.5L's and usually most of us... I def do... get extended warranties. I would say this falls under drivertrain... does it not?

You are correct with regard to the 3.5L and the transmission. HOWEVER, federal law dictates the 8 year, 100k warranty for hybrid specific components, including the battery.

Scroll down a bit.

 

[amschind]

I don't understand the basis for this declarative statement.

That's fair. There are a few reasons.
1) Better fuel economy:
Maybe the biggest reason. The PB's overall mileage is heavily influenced by the percentage of time that it can spend in all electric mode. The limiting factor is that the PB's electric motor cannot provide enough acceleration for anything but EXTREMELY slow driving, and any addition of say LT rather than P rated tires will almost completely eliminate its ability to go into all electric mode unless you're decelerating from highway speed or accelerating from stop with nobody behind you. Doubling the size of the electric motor solves those issues, with a resulting outsized effect on mileage.
2) Matches Extant Transmission/Rear-end Gears:
The PB, due to its small motor, needs short gears AND tall gears. Because it is underpowered, it needs all the help that it can get to stay in all electric mode under acceleration, while taller gears would be more beneficial at highway speed. One solution would be to widen the gears on the 10R80, but in practice Ford isn't going to reengineer the transmission unless hybrids are a VERY substantial fraction of sales. That leaves us with increasing the size of the electric motor so that instead of gearing, we simply have more motor torque to allow all electric mode acceleration.
3) Better Torque Curve:
For road vehicles, and trucks/SUVs in particular, you're topping out at 75 MPH generally and a very rare 95 MAX. This means that perception of power is mostly coming from acceleration from low speeds, which means that even with a narrow ratio 10 speed, the ability of the electric motor to generate torque starting at 0 RPM dramatically improves the perception of power while directly addressing the greatest weakness of the ICE (lack of power and torque at low RPM).

I'm calling it "better" because I think that all of the aims of the PB are more fully realized by the Aviator's VERY similar version of the technology. The one area where I would prefer the PB is the battery size, as the Aviator has a 15 kWh battery: for an F150, in 10 years the replacement cost of a 15 kWh battery pack may total the vehicle. That risk is very low for a 1.5 kWh battery, and PROBABLY acceptable for a 4-5 kWh battery.

 

[Bettermoa]

So can someone explain to me, like Im 11yrs old how this is supposed to be...?
So the PB is supposed to be more powerful than the EB, cuz it has a battery. The battery is ridiculously small and nothing like the ultra fast Tesla Plaid, Rivian or even the Ford Lightning with true EV batteries. It also supposedly increases 30HP and 70ft lbs tq....
Well how is that even possible when the battery only lasts about 5 seconds? For me? I back out of my driveway 53ft in battery mode (Electric), put it in Drive and immediately go into engine mode.
So if I'm hauling my boat or trailer, I may get the 'boosts', temporarily but it sure as heck isnt going to be constant. And if Im on a 1/4 mile start line and I spool up those turbos, how long is that little battery going to last me when I got the pedal floored? Five feet?
I personally dont care much about the PB. It was the color and bed length I wanted in a Plat. I rarely tow, but Im just trying to understand how they stand behind this marketing... and Im a guy who is used to flowing heads and trying different valves and port sizes to maximize HPs and torque out of a little 289 closed chambered head.... Something just doesnt add up... maybe I am missing the asterisk and small fonted footnote

430hp and 570tq*

*for the first five feet of travel.

Ok since your an avid diy enthusiast, I had 4
Ramps behind each wheel and as you may know yourself, it usually requires a decent amount of throttle to get just the front on ramps, I drove all 4 wheels up on ramps in 4WD and it did this in electric drive effortlessly, the engine didn’t run while driving up, I was pleasantly surprised, besides premium fuel and spirited driving shows how easily the truck accelerates ahead of many other vehicles,

 

[Samson16]

That's fair. There are a few reasons.
1) Better fuel economy:
Maybe the biggest reason. The PB's overall mileage is heavily influenced by the percentage of time that it can spend in all electric mode. The limiting factor is that the PB's electric motor cannot provide enough acceleration for anything but EXTREMELY slow driving, and any addition of say LT rather than P rated tires will almost completely eliminate its ability to go into all electric mode unless you're decelerating from highway speed or accelerating from stop with nobody behind you. Doubling the size of the electric motor solves those issues, with a resulting outsized effect on mileage.
2) Matches Extant Transmission/Rear-end Gears:
The PB, due to its small motor, needs short gears AND tall gears. Because it is underpowered, it needs all the help that it can get to stay in all electric mode under acceleration, while taller gears would be more beneficial at highway speed. One solution would be to widen the gears on the 10R80, but in practice Ford isn't going to reengineer the transmission unless hybrids are a VERY substantial fraction of sales. That leaves us with increasing the size of the electric motor so that instead of gearing, we simply have more motor torque to allow all electric mode acceleration.
3) Better Torque Curve:
For road vehicles, and trucks/SUVs in particular, you're topping out at 75 MPH generally and a very rare 95 MAX. This means that perception of power is mostly coming from acceleration from low speeds, which means that even with a narrow ratio 10 speed, the ability of the electric motor to generate torque starting at 0 RPM dramatically improves the perception of power while directly addressing the greatest weakness of the ICE (lack of power and torque at low RPM).

I'm calling it "better" because I think that all of the aims of the PB are more fully realized by the Aviator's VERY similar version of the technology. The one area where I would prefer the PB is the battery size, as the Aviator has a 15 kWh battery: for an F150, in 10 years the replacement cost of a 15 kWh battery pack may total the vehicle. That risk is very low for a 1.5 kWh battery, and PROBABLY acceptable for a 4-5 kWh battery.

Are you imagining tweaking the PB with a larger battery and emotor or going full swap with the iron block, aluminum head, why would I ever downgrade my 3.5TT to this engine plan?

Aviator numbers that jump out to me are:

Curb weight: 5843 lb

C/D
FUEL ECONOMY
Observed: 23 MPGe
75-mph highway driving, hybrid mode: 23 mpg

Meh...

I think they missed the mark with the Aviator and sales reflect it I suspect. The PB is very very good currently, but I think it can be improved carefully. A little more battery and emotor perhaps. The PB is so amazing because it's a better truck than anything in its' class. It does truck things better! That must be the foremost design improvement consideration imo.

 

[Snakebitten]

I have loved the 3.5 Ecoboost since its original release. But I'd take the Aviator drivetrain over the Powerboost drivetrain in a heartbeat!

I prefer the bottom end of the 2.7/3.0 over the 3.5. And I would love to have that bigger traction motor too!

I think I like @amschind 's concept of a bigger battery than the Powerboost, but not necessarily as big as the Aviator. But I wouldn't cry much with the same battery too.

 

[TheGoatman]

I have loved the 3.5 Ecoboost since its original release. But I'd take the Aviator drivetrain over the Powerboost drivetrain in a heartbeat!

I prefer the bottom end of the 2.7/3.0 over the 3.5. And I would love to have that bigger traction motor too!

I think I like @amschind 's concept of a bigger battery than the Powerboost, but not necessarily as big as the Aviator. But I wouldn't cry much with the same battery too.

Is there a chance the logic would work if the mounting works?

if it’s voltage driven, wouldn’t charging and discharging just be delayed in either direction?

 

[amschind]

Are you imagining tweaking the PB with a larger battery and emotor or going full swap with the iron block, aluminum head, why would I ever downgrade my 3.5TT to this engine plan?

Aviator numbers that jump out to me are:

Curb weight: 5843 lb

C/D
FUEL ECONOMY
Observed: 23 MPGe
75-mph highway driving, hybrid mode: 23 mpg

Meh...

I think they missed the mark with the Aviator and sales reflect it I suspect. The PB is very very good currently, but I think it can be improved carefully. A little more battery and emotor perhaps. The PB is so amazing because it's a better truck than anything in its' class. It does truck things better! That must be the foremost design improvement consideration imo.

You have a good point. The big issue to my mind is that the Aviator Hybrid is even more optimized for massive power AND has to carry a big battery AND still manages 23 combined. Further, I agree the PB is great, I'm just brainstorming on how it could improve.

I don't think that an F150 chassis would benefit from a direct transplant, but I'd love if if they leveraged the bigger motor to drop the ICE size. I'm specifically thinking of that tiny 4-banger sipping fuel at highway speed.

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