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How does the hybrid battery interface with the 12v system?

JBinFla

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I'm coming at this thinking about car stereo amps. Does the hybrid battery interface with the 12v system to supply more current on-demand? Curious if you can have more power draw from the 12v system for amps without needing a bigger alternator. Or, are the two not linked at all?
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JBinFla

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So it does... States "The DC/DC converter is a liquid-cooled component that converts high-voltage DC power to low-voltage DC power. It is a module located in the engine compartment and maintains an electrical isolation between the 2 DC power systems. This system converts the high-voltage (approximately 450 volts) to low-voltage (12 volts) that provides power to the vehicle low-voltage battery systems. The PCM controls the operation of the DC/DC converter through an enabled input from the PCM to the DC/DC converter. "

I think this is good news then. I should get my truck back Tuesday with my new stereo install (nothing too major) but just don't want to have headlights dim when the bass hits as some over-taxed 12v systems will do. Normally solve that with a battery, alternator or both and I don't really want to do either. Thanks!
 

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So it does... States "The DC/DC converter is a liquid-cooled component that converts high-voltage DC power to low-voltage DC power. It is a module located in the engine compartment and maintains an electrical isolation between the 2 DC power systems. This system converts the high-voltage (approximately 450 volts) to low-voltage (12 volts) that provides power to the vehicle low-voltage battery systems. The PCM controls the operation of the DC/DC converter through an enabled input from the PCM to the DC/DC converter. "

I think this is good news then. I should get my truck back Tuesday with my new stereo install (nothing too major) but just don't want to have headlights dim when the bass hits as some over-taxed 12v systems will do. Normally solve that with a battery, alternator or both and I don't really want to do either. Thanks!
I've never thought about that but it is definitely interesting (headlights dimming when bass hits). I would guess that only happens on incandescent headlights where they are running direct off 12V? Since LEDs cannot take 12V directly to their anode and cathode it has to be stepped down anyway and I bet they are not susceptible to transient battery voltage droops like the incandescent ones.

I'd be interested in your findings if you care to share them (also which type of headlights you have).
 
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JBinFla

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I have no idea what headlights I have :). I have XLT with the 302A or whatever high package is. I suspect it’s halogen. I’m happy with them so I doubt I’ll change over and looking at the price I’m hoping I do not have them (I just googled see if I could find out how to tell). They would have to pretty much make me get weak in the knees to justify $2500 headlights. I’m assuming that’s price to replace when they go out too. And my 25-year LED bulbs that we switched to in our house must be average because I’ve had to replace a few of them and only been 3 years since we moved in and replaced them all.
 

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JBinFla

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And I’ll let u know tomorrow or Wednesday. I should get it back by then. It’s not a super big setup so I’m hoping it will not but I had a car once with only 1200 watts and it dimmed when bass hit. I’m much older now so don’t really listen to that kinda music anymore. But I will to test it :)
 

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And I’ll let u know tomorrow or Wednesday. I should get it back by then. It’s not a super big setup so I’m hoping it will not but I had a car once with only 1200 watts and it dimmed when bass hit. I’m much older now so don’t really listen to that kinda music anymore. But I will to test it :)
You might want to spend some more time with the modders’ guide because I’m not sure the lithium battery pack that supplies power to the hybrid system works to provide supplemental power to the 12v system the way the quote above would appear to suggest. The PB actually has three distinct battery banks: the 12v AGM starter battery, the lithium-ion hybrid battery and a third 12v AGM auxiliary battery that provides supplemental power to the starter battery for transient loads during high draw events, like cranking. The operation of this very small aux battery (only 7.5Ah) is described in the same modders’ guide. If the hybrid battery could provide supplemental power to the 12v system, I’m not sure there would be a need for the aux battery.
 

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I would suggest that the two systems do not integrate - the power output of the traction battery is just too high to make that comfortable, although it does help to trickle charge the 12v battery when in use. The 12v battery, though, provides all 12v power, just like on any vehicle. If you plug into one of the 120v outlets, that power is provided by the traction battery, yes, but via a power INVERTER to bring down the large DC amps to 120v power.
 
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JBinFla

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You might want to spend some more time with the modders’ guide because I’m not sure the lithium battery pack that supplies power to the hybrid system works to provide supplemental power to the 12v system the way the quote above would appear to suggest. The PB actually has three distinct battery banks: the 12v AGM starter battery, the lithium-ion hybrid battery and a third 12v AGM auxiliary battery that provides supplemental power to the starter battery for transient loads during high draw events, like cranking. The operation of this very small aux battery (only 7.5Ah) is described in the same modders’ guide. If the hybrid battery could provide supplemental power to the 12v system, I’m not sure there would be a need for the aux battery.
The manual states there is a DC converter that converts the high voltage (approx 450v) to low voltage (12v) to supply power to the vehicles low voltage system. This is per the manual. I don't know more than what I quoted, but it clearly states there is a converter to use the high-voltage battery system to provide power to the low voltage system. In fact, if you go to page 20 of 58 of that PDF you will see that the 12v battery is listed as a "temporary power source when electrical loads exceed the DC/DC converter output current" which seems pretty clear to me that the DC converter is what supplies the low voltage power with the 12v battery as a "backup". I might suggest you spend a little more time with the modders' guide. Feel free to take my quotes and use your PDF readers search function to find them and read what I've read.

As to the original intent. I got my car back. Headlights do not dim when the bass hits, so I'm happy. I don't know for sure but I'm guessing I have halogen as it's an XLT. Looking forward to my drive to work in the morning. About the only part of work I will like.
 

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The manual states there is a DC converter that converts the high voltage (approx 450v) to low voltage (12v) to supply power to the vehicles low voltage system. This is per the manual. I don't know more than what I quoted, but it clearly states there is a converter to use the high-voltage battery system to provide power to the low voltage system. In fact, if you go to page 20 of 58 of that PDF you will see that the 12v battery is listed as a "temporary power source when electrical loads exceed the DC/DC converter output current" which seems pretty clear to me that the DC converter is what supplies the low voltage power with the 12v battery as a "backup". I might suggest you spend a little more time with the modders' guide. Feel free to take my quotes and use your PDF readers search function to find them and read what I've read.

As to the original intent. I got my car back. Headlights do not dim when the bass hits, so I'm happy. I don't know for sure but I'm guessing I have halogen as it's an XLT. Looking forward to my drive to work in the morning. About the only part of work I will like.
No need to get snotty.

I understand your reading but it still doesn’t explain why an aux AGM battery would be needed at all. The lithium battery is considerably bigger than either the 12v starter or the aux battery. You’d never get to the aux if the lithium bank functioned as you describe for all 12v systems. It might provide power to some 12v systems related to the drive train but, I expect it is isolated from accessory systems. I know of a couple of people who upgraded their starter batteries precisely because the accessory loads were too high for the stock starter battery. That would not have been necessary if the hybrid battery provided additional power.
 

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JBinFla

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Don't get offended, I chose to use your exact words because they indeed seemed snooty and I wanted to politely point that out. I'm not here to argue I am here to learn and converse. This is what I read. And I read that the high voltage battery provides 12v power via a converter and the 12v battery is a backup when it needs more power.

Now to my speculation: I wonder if this vehicle even has an alternator. I suspect no since the generator is there. This would mean the 12v system is supplied power by the generator which chqrges the high voltage system power. Also given all of the things that need electric power (brakes, steering, a/c, etc) that normally are driven by compressors or pumps off of the serpentine belt I wonder if that is why it's necessary to have this configuration of 12v power primarily supplied by the DC/DC converter. In a traditional car there all alternators, compressors, power steering pumps, and such driven off the engine not battery system. Thats my guess at least.
 

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After looking at the upfitter guide and Ford marketing about how the hybrid system works, I would like to put forth my theory.

In “key on”/truck is “running”, all low voltage systems are powered by the high voltage battery via the DC-DC converter. When the truck is “off”, any low voltage load is powered by the 12V battery. When you key-on the truck, there needs to be sufficient charge in the 12V battery to initialize everything and turn on the DC converter. The 12V battery also starts the engine via the starter if the high voltage battery is low charge.

When the truck is running, the 12V batteries provide surge current capability to power systems that the DC converter cannot handle. The AC compressor kicking on is an example where the current surge probably exceeds the capability of the DC converter. I also doubt that the DC converter can handle the surge for the starter.

I have not looked deep into the engine bay of my truck. But, given this theory of operation, there really isn’t any reason why the truck would have any belt driven components. Everything should be electrically powered by the low voltage system which in turn is powered by the high voltage battery via the DC converter.

Now, I suspect that under hood battery and the auxiliary 12V battery are isolated from each other. The under hood battery probably only handles the engine starter and anything related to key-on. The aux battery would then provide running 12v power handle surges while on to all the systems and accessories. Kind of like a capacitor.
 

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The Powerboost does not have an Alternator.
 

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After looking at the upfitter guide and Ford marketing about how the hybrid system works, I would like to put forth my theory.

In “key on”/truck is “running”, all low voltage systems are powered by the high voltage battery via the DC-DC converter. When the truck is “off”, any low voltage load is powered by the 12V battery. When you key-on the truck, there needs to be sufficient charge in the 12V battery to initialize everything and turn on the DC converter. The 12V battery also starts the engine via the starter if the high voltage battery is low charge.

When the truck is running, the 12V batteries provide surge current capability to power systems that the DC converter cannot handle. The AC compressor kicking on is an example where the current surge probably exceeds the capability of the DC converter. I also doubt that the DC converter can handle the surge for the starter.

I have not looked deep into the engine bay of my truck. But, given this theory of operation, there really isn’t any reason why the truck would have any belt driven components. Everything should be electrically powered by the low voltage system which in turn is powered by the high voltage battery via the DC converter.

Now, I suspect that under hood battery and the auxiliary 12V battery are isolated from each other. The under hood battery probably only handles the engine starter and anything related to key-on. The aux battery would then provide running 12v power handle surges while on to all the systems and accessories. Kind of like a capacitor.
This is interesting, but I’m not sure the 12v starter and aux are isolated. They might be, but here’s the wrinkle. When the Sync system was having lock up issues, one of the suggestions made was to disconnect the starter battery to cut all accessory power and allow the Sync system to reset. That procedure doesn’t work on the Powerboost because there is still retained power from another battery system, even when starter battery is out of the loop. Can that retained power can come from the DC/DC converter and the hybrid battery if the key is off? I’m not sure it can. If not, that leaves only the aux battery to provide retained power directly when the starter can’t handle it—in this example because it is disconnected.
 
 




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