Ready To Wire The House

[Hullguy]

Your 7.2kW generator has all the power you need to run most houses including an A/C unit. So what do you need to be safe and comply with the NEC? 1- an interlock between the input breaker and the outside line input breaker (Square D makes a manual one); 2- A male input plug box, weather tight; 3- A 240VAC 30Amp 4-wire extension cable (Home Depot carries them)(do not use a male-male cable); 4- the input system must be 4-wire: 2 hot wires, 1 neutral wire and 1 ground wire. The current problem you'll run into is that the PB generator is set up as a bonded neutral-ground in the truck. When the truck sense the neutral ground bond inside your hosue it'll shut down the generator. This is why many talk of a neutral switching breaker & panel (usually a smaller emergency panel). How ever you might talk to Ford (as I have done) and ask them for a method to convert your truck to a floating neutral generator. That fixes the problem of the truck shutting down the generator. Some have spoken of opening the ground between the truck and the house and that will work. But... it's a bad idea and doesn't meet the NEC.

Cheaper and safer to buy the correct equipment to transfer power than go in and try to modify the trucks grounding!

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[Gros Ventre]

didn't say I'd modify the truck myself... I've asked Ford, through my dealer, to put out a method to do that.

 

[Gros Ventre]

As to Ford putting out a method of converting to floating neutral: I've asked my Ford Dealer and they have made a formal request... Will let you know when something comes thru.

 

[Gros Ventre]

Oh... and the phrase "correct equipment" conveys that somehow setting up the PB generator as a floating neutral isn't correct or is a jury rig. That's just wrong. The generator can be set up as either a flaoting neutral or bonded neutral and would meet the requirements of the NEC. The bonded neutral as delivered by Ford is a requirement of OSHA for an onsite generator. It is not a requirement of the NEC.

 

[cool rod]

About to go forward with this using the Reliance transfer switch. It has 10 circuits expandable to 18. But I'm worried about what you've reported with the Generac faulting on the tandems. Ever find out anything more about this? Solve it? Just curious where things stand, and how you're feeling about your setup. More info appreciated. Thanks!

Sorry about not replying, I missed your post.

I never found out what caused the ground fault when using tandem breakers. I'm not electrically savvy, but I don't think my electrician was very sharp.

In the other thread "Installed Transfer Switch In House" Jessaf00 said about a problem he had with the Generac:
"Looks like this MAY be related to a common install mistake with the 6852 where an electrician runs all the neutral lines from the 6852 to the bus bar on the sub panel. Those neutrals need to be tied to the neutrals going to your outlets/lights/devices in order to fully separate from the main power. Electrician is coming back tomorrow to rework." And "KEY POINT is that the neutrals NEED to be moved to the Generac 6852 for the full isolation from the house." So maybe that could have some bearing, I don't know.

Knowledgeable posters on here hate this idea, but if I was starting over I'd use an ungrounded extension cord and an interlock. I have yet to read even one firsthand account of someone getting hurt with that setup.

 

[UGADawg96]

Sorry about not replying, I missed your post.

I never found out what caused the ground fault when using tandem breakers. I'm not electrically savvy, but I don't think my electrician was very sharp.

In the other thread "Installed Transfer Switch In House" Jessaf00 said about a problem he had with the Generac:
"Looks like this MAY be related to a common install mistake with the 6852 where an electrician runs all the neutral lines from the 6852 to the bus bar on the sub panel. Those neutrals need to be tied to the neutrals going to your outlets/lights/devices in order to fully separate from the main power. Electrician is coming back tomorrow to rework." And "KEY POINT is that the neutrals NEED to be moved to the Generac 6852 for the full isolation from the house." So maybe that could have some bearing, I don't know.

Knowledgeable posters on here hate this idea, but if I was starting over I'd use an ungrounded extension cord and an interlock. I have yet to read even one firsthand account of someone getting hurt with that setup.

You may not have heard of anyone firsthand getting struck by lightning, getting eaten by a bear, or winning 300+ million on Powerball either, but it happens. Be safe out there.

 

[Gros Ventre]

The discussion of operating with the house to truck ground circuit opened bothers me. Will it work? Yes. But recall that the purpose of the ground wire is to carry current only when there is a fault. That's why it seems to work... since there normally is not a fault, it works just fine when open. But, when a fault happens the frame of the truck could be at a voltage that could shock you... So, I think it is a bad, bad idea to operate that way.

 

[cool rod]

The discussion of operating with the house to truck ground circuit opened bothers me. Will it work? Yes. But recall that the purpose of the ground wire is to carry current only when there is a fault. That's why it seems to work... since there normally is not a fault, it works just fine when open. But, when a fault happens the frame of the truck could be at a voltage that could shock you... So, I think it is a bad, bad idea to operate that way.

I know, you're right. That's why I spent the money for a Generac transfer switch and an electrician. So I'm on board with doing it the right way, but it seems that the ones who've gone the simple and inexpensive route haven't had any problems and have access to their full circuit panel as needed, whereas the most you can get from a Generac transfer switch is 10 circuits. In my case 8 circuits. So two bedrooms in my house don't get power if I have to use the transfer switch, I guess I'll run extension cords if needed.

I went with the Generac setup for simplicity's sake if my wife needs to deal with a blackout while I might be out of town, but it's not the best option in my opinion if you need more than 8 circuits at the same time. In my house 8 circuits will handle all my necessities but a bigger house would need more. Jessa00 had no trouble with his tandem breakers and 10 circuits, but Generac told me 8 is all the panel can do. That's obviously bad information.

On the subject of Generac, if you don't have a Generac dealer do the installation their customer support is zero. You are on your own so your electrician needs to be on top of things. If he hasn't successfully installed this transfer switch before find another electrician who has. A competent electrician can do this job in less than two hours.

 

[Gros Ventre]

Hey, no sweat... Nothing wrong with going that route. I've looked around to see if there is a "whole House Neutral Switching Breaker... None that I coud find out there... I don't like limiting the number of powered circuits when there is whole house kW in the generator. So I've gone the route of asking Ford to do the simple fix: Provide a procedure or method of reconfiguring the generator as a Floating Neutral generator.

 

[BLoflin]

Hey, no sweat... Nothing wrong with going that route. I've looked around to see if there is a "whole House Neutral Switching Breaker... None that I coud find out there... I don't like limiting the number of powered circuits when there is whole house kW in the generator. So I've gone the route of asking Ford to do the simple fix: Provide a procedure or method of reconfiguring the generator as a Floating Neutral generator.

Couple of points...

There is no definition of a set size for a "whole house" breaker box (so no definition for a Neutral Switching either).

Breaker boxes come in size from 8 "slots" to 40+ slots.

Utility provided amperage is usually 200amp max (some smaller and older houses could be 100amp, other larger house could be 400 amp).

So to fully replace a 200 amp utility connection when power is down you would need about a 50KW generator (not feasible for residential). But of course a typical house never pulls 200amp at one time.

The PB can provide 30amps (even a home natural gas 10KW Generac is about 45amps).

So typically for any temporary off grid situation you need to pick an choose (either before hand or at the time of the power loss) which critical circuits you want to power up.

Even with a 10 slot transfer panel, with each breaker being a 15amp breaker, you only will get a max of 30 amps out of the PB before tripping. So 2 circuits would max it if each breaker was pulling 15amps (like having a 12amp Dyson vacuum and some lights, and a hair dryer, and the microwave or coffee pot going).

On your situation with the tandem breakers, don't understand why the Electrician can't debug that. As long as the tandem breakers are not faulty out of the box, and you aren't pulling enough amps to trip the overcurrent on the PB, there is no difference between a tandem and 2 regular size. They are just switches with a current limit. Your breaker box, your loads (appliances) and your generator (PB) can't tell the difference between a tandem and a regular.

The Electrician needs to go slow, plug one tandem in (without load connected) at a time. Then add one load to one side of the tandem at a time. Then the second load to the other half of the tandem, then keep going like that. All the while with the PB being the generator. Until you get the fault.

 

[cool rod]

Couple of points...

There is no definition of a set size for a "whole house" breaker box (so no definition for a Neutral Switching either).

Breaker boxes come in size from 8 "slots" to 40+ slots.

Utility provided amperage is usually 200amp max (some smaller and older houses could be 100amp, other larger house could be 400 amp).

So to fully replace a 200 amp utility connection when power is down you would need about a 50KW generator (not feasible for residential). But of course a typical house never pulls 200amp at one time.

The PB can provide 30amps (even a home natural gas 10KW Generac is about 45amps).

So typically for any temporary off grid situation you need to pick an choose (either before hand or at the time of the power loss) which critical circuits you want to power up.

Even with a 10 slot transfer panel, with each breaker being a 15amp breaker, you only will get a max of 30 amps out of the PB before tripping. So 2 circuits would max it if each breaker was pulling 15amps (like having a 12amp Dyson vacuum and some lights, and a hair dryer, and the microwave or coffee pot going).

On your situation with the tandem breakers, don't understand why the Electrician can't debug that. As long as the tandem breakers are not faulty out of the box, and you aren't pulling enough amps to trip the overcurrent on the PB, there is no difference between a tandem and 2 regular size. They are just switches with a current limit. Your breaker box, your loads (appliances) and your generator (PB) can't tell the difference between a tandem and a regular.

The Electrician needs to go slow, plug one tandem in (without load connected) at a time. Then add one load to one side of the tandem at a time. Then the second load to the other half of the tandem, then keep going like that. All the while with the PB being the generator. Until you get the fault.

Thanks. I'm really thinking of getting a different electrician and trying what you suggested. Sometimes bringing someone new in brings new ideas and new eyes. What you said sounds logical to me, if I bring in a new guy I'll print your comments out and let him try his hand. I hate like hell to get this close to whole house powerup and not get it done.

Cheers

 

[Hullguy]

Thanks. I'm really thinking of getting a different electrician and trying what you suggested. Sometimes bringing someone new in brings new ideas and new eyes. What you said sounds logical to me, if I bring in a new guy I'll print your comments out and let him try his hand. I hate like hell to get this close to whole house powerup and not get it done.

Cheers

I think another electrician is a good idea. But be prepared to find you have an issue with your home wiring on one of the circuits that must be repaired.

 

[Gros Ventre]

As to the kW needed... a small 3 kW generator will power most of a house except the hotwater heater, dryer, A/C unit and oven... The idea that you might need a 50 kW generator? Come on... As to the number of slots in a panel... so why did you go thru that litany? The issue was simply whether one would limit the number of circuits just to accomodate the use of a neutral switching breaker when the PB generator has all the power you need...? I've run my whole house on a small 4kW generator (really just 3 kW given my altitude) for several weeks and it operated just fine for all circuits, except the hot water heater, dryer and oven (each of which were in the realm of 3 to 4 kW load and I don't have an A/C unit). The PB generator will run two of those three big loads at the same time just fine.

 

[Gros Ventre]

Note that Ford is advertising their Lightning w/9.6kW inverter as able to power up a house. This would face a similar problem with the in house neutral-ground bonding versus the floating neutral or neutral-ground bonding in the inverter. In other words: Ford has a solution to the problem, so just put it out to us F-150 Powerboost guys...

 

[Atlee]

Note that Ford is advertising their Lightning w/9.6kW inverter as able to power up a house. This would face a similar problem with the in house neutral-ground bonding versus the floating neutral or neutral-ground bonding in the inverter. In other words: Ford has a solution to the problem, so just put it out to us F-150 Powerboost guys...

How many hours can the Lightning actually power a house?

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