Ford cutting workforce at F-150 Lightning plant in Dearborn

[JJSnell]

Ford nailed the Lightning on ALL accounts.....
As a commuter, yes. As a work truck? No, not in any capacity.

Sorry, trying to understand your contradictory statements...
"Ford nailed the Lightning on all accounts..."???

Huh?

If you wanted just an EV commuter then why in the world would you choose a truck?

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[Smokewagun]

Yes, contradictory. I think for the first EV truck Ford built, they knocked it out of the park. Design, quality, ride, suspension, charging (yes, the truck charges quickly on Fast chargers), etc.
I drive alot. Yes, it’s my commuter. But I use a truck, too. Not for my daily job, but for my lifestyle and projects. I have logged well over 2-1/2 million miles in trucks. Diesels and gassers. The Lightning fit the bill for my commute very well, saving me money an ICE truck never could touch, BUT, it did not allow me to stretch my legs for longer trips. I’m not retired. Vacation and weekend trips are time sensitive. I want to get there and enjoy myself, although I love to drive my trucks. They are my hobby, too.
Where the Lightning does not work is for people who use a truck daily for carpentry, construction, electricians, plumbers, etc. The Lightning has no sympathy for those who can’t stop to charge for 29-30 minutes between sites, or longer with the poor infrastructure. That is where the Lightning failed as “the truck that builds America”, as Ford touted in their release. No, those who build America can’t wait to charge or just take another vehicle when they need to drag a trailer. Of course, none of the EV trucks, including that abortion from Tesla, have any respectable and practical towing range.

 

[Los150]

Ford underperformed in Jan, but in Feb they're up 80% from feb of 23.

January is shitty month for sales in just about every sector unless some PMs get a new budget to buy stuff.

I'm inclined to believe that their numbers are up compared to last year, in terms of sales to dealers but an AP article from Jan said that dealer inventories are climbing and their sales are down.

 

[BennyTheBeaver]

That thing is going to be a 9900lb GVWR uber piggy with 2 tons on that front axle. They also just laid off 400 engineers. Not a good look when they're about to release a whole bunch of new tech vehicles they really have no experience in. I know the charger / challenger fans are pissed.

All fair points. I give credit to RAM for at least creating a unique engine type that mitigates alot of issues people have with range/EVs. I personally would want one, maintanence on 2 types of motors in one vehicle just isn't for me.

 

[HammaMan]

All fair points. I give credit to RAM for at least creating a unique engine type that mitigates alot of issues people have with range/EVs. I personally would want one, maintanence on 2 types of motors in one vehicle just isn't for me.

EV motors don't really have maint. You change the gearbox oil every 50k miles or so. Each takes a couple quarts. Less than a trans needs. Also the coolant loops don't get hot so the coolant lasts forever. To prevent EV maintenance you just need to regularly exercise the friction brakes. Why do you think dealers don't much care for them? No money to be made servicing them. They start making shit up creating EV service packages. Washer fluid, cabin air filter, tires, gearbox oil change, maybe eventually brakes and coolant at 5 year mark though it probably lasts much longer given the lack of heat.

 

[eharri3]

Manufacturers ramped up production of a product there wasn't super strong demand for due to government pressure from bureaucrats who have never held down a real job or paid a personal financial price for creating an undesirable product that doesn't sell.

incentives expanded use and in more hands people found the drawbacks, causing the market began to rebalance. That's what we're now seeing.

 

[Rod507]

Manufacturers ramped up production of a product there wasn't super strong demand for due to government pressure from bureaucrats who have never held down a real job or paid a personal financial price for creating an undesirable product that doesn't sell.

incentives expanded use and in more hands people found the drawbacks, causing the market began to rebalance. That's what we're now seeing.

I completely agree with you! I’m still convinced that greedy automaker and dealers also at fault. If the lightning were kept at original price without multiple price increases, people would have bought in a bit more.

 

[UncleFester]

This is similar to what GM did last fall at the Lake Orion plant. The new Sierra EV was supposed to start production early 2024, now 1000 employees have been moved to other plants and maybe late 2025 before production starts. But with EV sales in the tank that may never happen.

 

[HammaMan]

This is similar to what GM did last fall at the Lake Orion plant. The new Sierra EV was supposed to start production early 2024, now 1000 employees have been moved to other plants and maybe late 2025 before production starts. But with EV sales in the tank that may never happen.

Again, EV sales are not in the tank. Tesla bitch slapped the market with price drops while they're still making mad $$$. They make more $ per vehicle than ford does with ICE trucks at twice the price. Any ICE manufacturer would give their left arm for the types of sales growth EVs have had. ICE F150 sales have been constricting for the last few years. EVs still have an increasing curve vs ICE vehicles running a negative YoY sales.

Gone is the covid handout market of 2 years ago where supply was constrained and cash-flush customers with 0% interest were creating an artificial bubble. Right now tesla is printing money with the CT suckers buying up a laughably poor-value vehicle. This too is a bubble these 100k/120k vehicles they've been unloading to foolish buyers --- will soon be down in value 30-40% by the end of the year. If it wasn't for dealers, who make more profit on vehicle sales than ford does, ford would be doing pretty damn well. The lightning was killed with dealer markups. 90k plats were being offered at +$30k dealer markups. Greedy stealerships held back EVs, not the market. Once the insane markups fell off, sales climbed, incentives further increased sales. Had the playing field been at sticker price the whole time, sales would have been steady. Tesla's 2023 price drops had the intended desires of taking away sales from other EV makers who couldn't drop price on a whim. There were 7 or 8 price drops over the span of nov-2022 through end 2023.

The 15 month depreciation of my mach-e due to these insane price drops is 50%(or more). The boys still hurt from that kick, but I always put down more than enough to cover such things.

 

[amschind]

I think that these discussions are clouded by confusion between electric traction motors vs a prime mover geared to the wheels AND battery vs ICE prime movers.

The thing that BEVs have absolutely killed are archaic ICE vehicles. Transmissions, differentials, driveshafts, and CV shafts are done: 2 or 4 hub motors are the way to move an automobile. Parallel hybrids and pure ICE powertrains cannot compete with a "rectangular" torque curve.

Batteries vs ICE prime movers is far less clear. None of the current production ICEs will be in production in 10 years: spark ignited 4 stroke engines can't compete with batteries, and 4 stroke diesels are only a little better. Opposed piston compression ignition two stroke engines have a very narrow power band, but they pay that back with extreme efficiency and light weight. Right now, my 20 MPG Powerboost is neck and neck the cost of driving a Lightning. A buddy found a free charger near Austin last week, but his next stop was nearly $0.45/kWh, so variability aside I put it at $0.35 for fast charging and $3/gal for 87 or 88. Electricity at my house costs right at half that.

A 37 MPG F150 has existed for 6 years, and doesn't use series hybrid tech. I want that mileage, a 36 gallon tank and the Lightning's torque curve. The only part that hasn't been built out is the hub motor bearings that last long enough not to be a maintenance nightmare. There isn't a technical reason why we can't have all of the best parts and avoid all of the worst ones.

 

[Snakebitten]

I often find that for ME, the best solution to the either/or questions are often BOTH.

Is an EV or an ICE vehicle the best choice for me?

Both are way better than just one or the other. Both are fascinating machines. Both are so good at what they are so good at.
Yes, they each have some shortcomings, yet those shortcomings are often the strength of the other.

I like peanut butter
I like strawberry preserves
I love peanut butter and strawberry preserves.

 

[amschind]

I often find that for ME, the best solution to the either/or questions are often BOTH.

Is an EV or an ICE vehicle the best choice for me?

Both are way better than just one or the other. Both are fascinating machines. Both are so good at what they are so good at.
Yes, they each have some shortcomings, yet those shortcomings are often the strength of the other.

I like peanut butter
I like strawberry preserves
I love peanut butter and strawberry preserves.

I agree, but I think that a PHEV means that you can have both in the same vehicle.

 

[HammaMan]

Yeah, hub motors look good on paper, but the abuse they get from the road doesn't really make them feasible currently (not to mention their planetary gears increase complexity and unsprung mass / bearing count). Plus 4 motors = 4x 3 phase inverters. Dual motors with driveshafts for now is a better approach.

I think ford and GM should partner up on 2 or 3 high efficiency ICE generator motors. Billions can be spent on motor development which is why they're kept with minor evolutions over time for a decade or longer. They could take it a step further and create a large joint manufacturing center for building the motor generator as well as motors themselves. By combining forces into a US joint manufacturing facility full of automation they can churn out substantial amounts of products instantly taking advantage of economies of scale. Do the same for the inverters and chargers taking into account scalability for different size platforms.

Doing the homework up-front and looking to cover every sector from small CUVs to the F550 could be done with a handful of parts / designs. It could be as simple as just an inverter design that can just accept more components for increased outputs. 2 housings could cover the entire range as well as incorporating the bottom half of the housing into the motor itself. The AC charger, DC/DC, as well as AC output could be contained in a single module like the CT has done. It's just crazy how ford has about a dozen different electric motors throughout the EV/Hybrid fleet when 3 motors could cover every vehicle (not to mention a dozen ICE motors). 150kW, 250kW, 350kW motors is all that's needed to cover every vehicle. That provides several power combinations from 210hp to 940hp depending on which motor combinations they go with.

I like peanut butter
I like strawberry preserves
I love peanut butter and strawberry preserves.

Reminds me of one of my quotes sorta.. "I like fruit and I like cake, but I don't like fruit in my cake"

 

[Spiffy]

8

Its a double edged sword. Telsa was able to cut prices and under cut competition with their pricing model. It also makes it hard to trade one in as dealers could lose thousands over night if they cut the price of new models. Model Ys are relatively well priced after the tax credit.

Did you see that interview with Elon? He talked about a conversation with one of his money crunchers. When Elon asked how much the Tesla roadster sold for he said 85k. When Elon asked same money man how much it costs to produce the same guy said he didn't know. Elon then asked why he didn't know and would he be surprised to learn that the actual production cost is 185k the crunchers did not respond.
Elon fired him. Said he got lied to.

The real scoop is these card are being sold at far actual cost to produce in order to get more vehicles into the market to repair at later date. There is far more profit in repairing and parts sales later than the upfront sale.

The whole reason for the report was to show that new car startups are impossible to sustain. The company need to wait 5 years before generating cash flow whereas a company like ford has years and years of vehicles that are not in warranty and generating uncompromising the repair side.

All the big manufacturers are losing money on each sale of these government mandatory vehicles. But the loss is made up with government money. Your money.
And it's going to get worse.

These stupid mandates are going to to continue through the election. Current administration doesn't want to tick off the environmentalists.
Everyone knows ev cars are not going to be in demand at the predicted number for a long long time.

How are people in innercity high density areas going to get private charging stations when they live in condos and apartments?

 

[HammaMan]

8

Did you see that interview with Elon? He talked about a conversation with one of his money crunchers. When Elon asked how much the Tesla roadster sold for he said 85k. When Elon asked same money man how much it costs to produce the same guy said he didn't know. Elon then asked why he didn't know and would he be surprised to learn that the actual production cost is 185k the crunchers did not respond.
Elon fired him. Said he got lied to.

The real scoop is these card are being sold at far actual cost to produce in order to get more vehicles into the market to repair at later date. There is far more profit in repairing and parts sales later than the upfront sale.

The whole reason for the report was to show that new car startups are impossible to sustain. The company need to wait 5 years before generating cash flow whereas a company like ford has years and years of vehicles that are not in warranty and generating uncompromising the repair side.

All the big manufacturers are losing money on each sale of these government mandatory vehicles. But the loss is made up with government money. Your money.
And it's going to get worse.

These stupid mandates are going to to continue through the election. Current administration doesn't want to tick off the environmentalists.
Everyone knows ev cars are not going to be in demand at the predicted number for a long long time.

How are people in innercity high density areas going to get private charging stations when they live in condos and apartments?

Not sure if you've caught the 27-2032 vehicle emissions rules but they're BRUTAL.. Well over a 50% reduction from 2024 levels.

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