Finally found some real world oil pump belt feedback

[WhiteLightningnshitshadow]

Skip to the 40min mark where I Do Cars pulls the oil pump belt at 96k off a 2018. Just full of cracks

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[Highway 11]

Obviously my first reaction is one of concern and annoyance that there is a wet belt running the oil pump vs the chain in the first generation 2.7. Couple of thoughts:

That engine, if I recall correctly, suffered a catastrophic failure . I'm curious to what led up to the failure and what happened during the failure, and if that caused any of the damage we see on the belt.

The 1.0L Ecoboost was notorious for wet belt failures. A quick internet search shows hundreds of posts about the engine grenading due to belt failure. Yet the same search for the 2.7L and 5.0L doesn't come up with anything for a belt failure. Both of these engines have been out for 5 years, and are some of the most popular engines (Ballparking, 35% of all F150s are 2.7L models, 25% are 5.0L models, meaning ~60% of F150s come with a wet belt.) - the internet would be furious and we'd see it on here all the time. So what changed? Is the belt stronger or more durable? Or is it in a lower stress application? Or all we sitting on grenades with ridiculously long fuses?

This reminds me of the scene in Breaking Bad where Walter tells Jesse to use hydrochloric acid in a polyethylene tub. Jesse doesn't think it'll stand up to the acid, so he uses a metal bathtub... and dissolves the bathtub sending the contents into the floor below. Maybe we're all just rushing to conclusions based on what we think is common sense. Or maybe I'll be calling a tow truck tomorrow.

 

[WhiteLightningnshitshadow]

Obviously my first reaction is one of concern and annoyance that there is a wet belt running the oil pump vs the chain in the first generation 2.7. Couple of thoughts:

That engine, if I recall correctly, suffered a catastrophic failure . I'm curious to what led up to the failure and what happened during the failure, and if that caused any of the damage we see on the belt.

The 1.0L Ecoboost was notorious for wet belt failures. A quick internet search shows hundreds of posts about the engine grenading due to belt failure. Yet the same search for the 2.7L and 5.0L doesn't come up with anything for a belt failure. Both of these engines have been out for 5 years, and are some of the most popular engines (Ballparking, 35% of all F150s are 2.7L models, 25% are 5.0L models, meaning ~60% of F150s come with a wet belt.) - the internet would be furious and we'd see it on here all the time. So what changed? Is the belt stronger or more durable? Or is it in a lower stress application? Or all we sitting on grenades with ridiculously long fuses?

This reminds me of the scene in Breaking Bad where Walter tells Jesse to use hydrochloric acid in a polyethylene tub. Jesse doesn't think it'll stand up to the acid, so he uses a metal bathtub... and dissolves the bathtub sending the contents into the floor below.

Yeah undoubtedly I think the 2.7 and 5.0 belt is vastly improved over the 3cyl failures. I don't see many high milage 2018+ 2.7s yet? I think the most I've seen is around that 130k mark?

The failure from the video was a bearing failure I think, but this doesn't seem to have been caused by the belt. The part I'm extremely concerned about is when he checks the condition of the belt at only 96k and its looking like it's ready to let go at any minute.

It would be one thing if there was a way to inspect it, but this dumbass belt is so poorly designed that it takes basically pulling the engine and tearing it halfway apart to access it. I looked around and found absolutely zero (0, zilch, nada, nothing) suggesting even an inspection or replacement schedule.

 

[JExpedition07]

Didn’t he say it was run low on oil? That will overheat the belt fast.

 

[amschind]

The guy who had the failure gave him the engine. Basically he got a low oil warning on the highway, pulled over, stopped the truck, checked the oil level, and then restarted it. With zero oil, that's all it took to spin the one bearing and damage the rest.

 

[Buyer2021]

The guy who had the failure gave him the engine. Basically he got a low oil warning on the highway, pulled over, stopped the truck, checked the oil level, and then restarted it. With zero oil, that's all it took to spin the one bearing and damage the rest.

So in fairness, we're looking at a belt that was run to catastrophic engine failure (for reasons unrelated to the belt) absent the belt's intended healthy oil bath and moderated temperatures.

IMO that makes it impossible to draw any meaningful conclusions from this case about belt robustness / longevity in 'normal' use. There's no way to know what that belt looked like immediately before the initiation of this engine failure.

There are many Gen 14 2.7s & 5.0s on the road, doubtless more than a few already with high miles. I'm not aware of any reports of wet-belt failure, certainly it's not a common thing or we'd have major threads reporting that woe. Just sayin' .....

(but yeah, I'm happy to have a 3.5 with a direct coupler driven oil pump )

 

[WhiteLightningnshitshadow]

So in fairness, we're looking at a belt that was run to catastrophic engine failure (for reasons unrelated to the belt) absent the belt's intended healthy oil bath and moderated temperatures.

IMO that makes it impossible to draw any meaningful conclusions from this case about belt robustness / longevity in 'normal' use. There's no way to know what that belt looked like immediately before the initiation of this engine failure.

There are many Gen 14 2.7s & 5.0s on the road, doubtless more than a few already with high miles. I'm not aware of any reports of wet-belt failure, certainly it's not a common thing or we'd have major threads reporting that woe. Just sayin' .....

(but yeah, I'm happy to have a 3.5 with a direct coupler driven oil pump )

I'm not sure if being run while low on oil would necessarily cause the belt to degrade if we are applying conventional knowledge about belts (which don't usually require cooling, especially ones like this that are tooth bearing) to the case. It just looks like any other degraded belt of similar mileage. Belts have ALWAYS been a wear item until Ford suddenly forgot to add a service interval and make it insanely hard to access or inspect. I would be super interested to see engines from totalled trucks with some cursory evaluations done.

 

[Buyer2021]

I'm not sure if being run while low on oil would necessarily cause the belt to degrade if we are applying conventional knowledge about belts (which don't usually require cooling .....

"Wet" (aka "BIO" - Belt-In-Oil) belts, by definition, are very different animals from 'conventional' belts. The former being specifically designed to run in an oil bath, the latter usually carrying an explicit warning against potentially damaging effects of contact with oil. IMO it's a mistake to try to make any meaningful correlation or comparison between the two in any respect (but it's your prerogative to hold a different opinion, no worries! ).

BTW, Ford is far from alone in using BIO cogged belts, and in applications that are difficult to access for inspection or R&R. Granted, some of those other applications do have a manufacturer recommendation for expensive replacement intervals.

Just to be clear I'm not suggesting that this belt / this application is a bullet-proof 'forever' component; by the same token it seems, at least so far, to be a reasonably robust component in this case. Heaven knows there's other components on these engines that have already accumulated a demonstrated if infrequent reputation for being 'troublesome', unlike this belt.

 

[Spiffers]

The guy who had the failure gave him the engine. Basically he got a low oil warning on the highway, pulled over, stopped the truck, checked the oil level, and then restarted it. With zero oil, that's all it took to spin the one bearing and damage the rest.

My sister basically did that with an Escort. Got the oil changed at the dealership and between there and home (about 20 miles) something that didn't get tightened right let go. She got stopped right as the engine blew.

 

[amschind]

So in fairness, we're likely looking at a belt that was run to catastrophic engine failure (for reasons unrelated to the belt) absent the belt's intended healthy oil bath and moderated temperatures.

IMO that makes it impossible to draw any meaningful conclusions from this case about belt robustness / longevity. There's no way to know what that belt looked like immediately before the initiation of this engine failure.

There are many Gen 14 2.7s & 5.0s on the road, doubtless more than a few already with high miles. I'm not aware of any reports of wet-belt failure, certainly it's not a common thing or we'd have major threads reporting that woe. Just sayin' .....

(but yeah, I'm happy to have a 3.5 with a direct coupler driven oil pump )

Right, the visual condition of the the belt can't really be evaluated, but we can take something from the fact that a well maintained low mileage engine killed itself in a matter of seconds due to a failure that was likely but not conclusively due to the belt's failure.

 

[Buyer2021]

Right, the visual condition of the the belt can't really be evaluated, but we can take something from the fact that a well maintained low mileage engine killed itself in a matter of seconds due to a failure that was likely but not conclusively due to the belt's failure.

With all due respect I suggest you are overreaching, there's absolutely nothing in that video even remotely suggesting that "belt['s] failure" was "likely", much less a contributor to the engine's destruction.

To the contrary, upon disassembly he finds the belt in-place, intact, and in spite of the observed belt cracking all associated anecdotal evidence he relates about the event suggests the belt-driven pump continued to force oil (and debris) throughout and 'beyond' the engine as long as there was oil at the pickup. In his summarizing conclusion he acknowledges lack of evidence pointing to a specific initiating cause of failure, but never even hints an opinion that it might have been due to failure of the wet belt in this case.

 

[amschind]

With all due respect I suggest you are overreaching, there's absolutely nothing in that video even remotely suggesting that "belt['s] failure" was "likely", much less a contributor to the engine's destruction.

To the contrary, upon disassembly he finds the belt in-place, intact, and in spite of the observed belt cracking all associated anecdotal evidence he relates about the event suggests the belt-driven pump continued to force oil (and debris) throughout and 'beyond' the engine as long as there was oil at the pickup. In his summarizing conclusion he acknowledges lack of evidence pointing to a specific initiating cause of failure, but never even hints an opinion that it might have been due to failure of the wet belt in this case.

You're correct, we can't conclude that the belt done it in this case, but we also don't have the expertise to diagnose belt failure by remote video inspection beyond "it fell to pieces".

Good Read on the Rationale For Belt In Oil

I think it's useful to note that reliability wasn't one of the driving forces. It's also a little odd to use BIO for one tiny belt while using a chain for the timing system.

 

[PPK]

i used to work in a factory that had many cog belts driving fans and pumps. they are great. some would last for years and years. the limiting factor was how much power are your trying to transfer. more than a few hp and the belt had to be an inch and half wide or you just could not get the life out of it. all the 5hp motors had big wide cog belts and pulleys. that is the key to making them live a long time is to have plenty of belt and three inch diameter pulleys

the oil pump probably does not take much hp with the crankshaft spinning 1500 rpm and oil. pressure of 38 psi. Not sure what it takes when you passing a car or pulling a trailer and it is doing 70 psi. That 2.7 oil pump has variable stroke.. so hard to tell. Oil wieght also would take hp up or down. i am running 0-30w in mine.

 

[gagliano7]

I forgot where I seen it but on the 5.0 ford says at 150000 miles oil pump belt needs to be replaced.

 

[Buyer2021]

the oil pump probably does not take much hp ....

The attached from the Ford Service Manual (2022 2.7 section) perhaps of interest. While not specifying the load the pump imposes it's explicitly designed "to minimize its parasitic energy loss" (which would correlate to belt load).

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