Changes to 24MY Powerboost

[BigJim]

I read the following changes are being made to the Powerboost:

Ford’s engineers deleted the belt-driven starter. This starter fires the gas motor when transitioning from all-electric driving, or when auto start/stop engages. Instead, the 2024 PowerBoost now utilizes the electric motor itself along with the traditional flex-plate mounted starter. Ford said the engineers wanted to reduce complexity and costs while pursuing added refinement and smoothness.

Can someone explain what this change means (to a non-technical guy) and if this will improve reliability at all?

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[Snakebitten]

I think you explained it perfectly well.
The BISG, in the manner Ford deployed it on the Powerboost, was redundant.

After 3 years of historical data, they eliminated one layer of redundancy.

There's 2 ways to fire up the 3.5 ICE, instead of 3.

 

[BigJim]

I think you explained it perfectly well.
The BISG, in the manner Ford deployed it on the Powerboost, was redundant.

After 3 years of historical data, they eliminated one layer of redundancy.

There's 2 ways to fire up the 3.5 ICE, instead of 3.

So is this only a cost savings measure or is there any other benefi? any potential problems with the new change?

 

[Samson16]

It saves on costs for Ford, yes, but it does remove a potential point of failure for owners. The traction motor is strong enough under most conditions to turn the ICE over and the conventional starter functions just like the 3.5EB which works well. They weren’t using the generator functionality which rendered it redundant at best.

 

[SeanV313]

It saves on costs for Ford, yes, but it does remove a potential point of failure for owners. The traction motor is strong enough under most conditions to turn the ICE over and the conventional starter functions just like the 3.5EB which works well. They weren’t using the generator functionality which rendered it redundant at best.

What would have been a good use of the generator? Why would they have included this feature if they didn't use it?

 

[Snakebitten]

What would have been a good use of the generator? Why would they have included this feature if they didn't use it?

The component itself is now a common component in the automotive industry on multiple hybrid vehicles. So common that the component is referred to as a BISG.
That acronym isn't a Ford acronym, and the fact that acronym is used in the official documentation for the Powerboost, it caused its fair share of debate early on.

Many folks argued that if Ford put a BISG in the truck and called it a BISG, then surely it is both a 12V starter and a 12V generator.

But eventually the PIDs, or lack thereof, began to support the claim that the 18,000 page factory service manual had no conclusive reference to the generator function at all.

And the DC/DC converter became far better understood and that made it much more comfortable to accept the notion that the BISG wasn't required to be more than a BIS.

The 2024 Powerboost certainly put the final exclamation on the debate.

Just for fun, it would be cool if Ford decided to go electric on the water pump. That's the last belt left on the 3.5 Ecoboost in the Powerboost.

Imagine no belts. Do you even need a crank pully?

 

[thudnblunder]

So is this only a cost savings measure or is there any other benefi? any potential problems with the new change?

Adds about 20 more pounds of available payload capacity too

 

[thudnblunder]

The component itself is now a common component in the automotive industry on multiple hybrid vehicles. So common that the component is referred to as a BISG.
That acronym isn't a Ford acronym, and the fact that acronym is used in the official documentation for the Powerboost, it caused its fair share of debate early on.

Many folks argued that if Ford put a BISG in the truck and called it a BISG, then surely it is both a 12V starter and a 12V generator.

But eventually the PIDs, or lack thereof, began to support the claim that the 18,000 page factory service manual had no conclusive reference to the generator function at all.

And the DC/DC converter became far better understood and that made it much more comfortable to accept the notion that the BISG wasn't required to be more than a BIS.

The 2024 Powerboost certainly put the final exclamation on the debate.

Just for fun, it would be cool if Ford decided to go electric on the water pump. That's the last belt left on the 3.5 Ecoboost in the Powerboost.

Imagine no belts. Do you even need a crank pully?

That water pump... my Mazda6 2009 had a 3.7L V6 Ford engine where the water pump is under the timing cover and driven by the timing chain. When my engine's water pump failed at 196K miles, it dumped water right into the oil. That engine was in great shape, but to fix it means pulling it from the car, and at that point, because water and oil mixed, I'm not sure if the heads warped from overheating. So now its a head job too. And then crank pulley is not keyed and held on with a torque to yield bolt. Which means if my shade tree mechanic doesn't get it right, the crank and cam timing will eventually slip till the engine blows up again. I am now looking for a donor engine with lower miles.

Long rant to basically say, I wish Ford had gone to an external water pump on the 3.5/3.7 V6 platform 16 years ago.

 

[Hans Moleman]

So if that combo belt driven starter / generator is gone, how does the HV battery get charged?

 

[Snakebitten]

The BISG was 12V

HV battery on Hybrids are normally charged by the traction motor. The REAL BISG.

 

[HammaMan]

It saves on costs for Ford, yes, but it does remove a potential point of failure for owners. The traction motor is strong enough under most conditions to turn the ICE over and the conventional starter functions just like the 3.5EB which works well. They weren’t using the generator functionality which rendered it redundant at best.

The traction motor has 35kW of power behind it (and 300nm of torque), to say it's just strong enough to start it is an understatement. That's more than 3x the amount of power huge diesel pony motors used to start them before the swap to large 24v starters. A flywheel starter under best of conditions tops out around 6kW. I suspect at speed with the latest updates the traction motor is starting the ICE as when it comes in it's damn near instantly at rev-match speed and locked in. Coming out of the smokies the ICE was turning on and off about twice a minute if not more, and I just couldn't feel it at all. I need to setup a logging profile with the right PIDs using forscan the next time I make the trip to see what's going on. The 10ms sampling rate should catch it.

 

[amschind]

This is a good thing. I would not be sad if software updates turned the 21-23 PB BISG into an idler pulley.

 

[HammaMan]

This is a good thing. I would not be sad if software updates turned the 21-23 PB BISG into an idler pulley.

Or remove it entirely.

 

[PB2021]

Our 2024 Hybrid CRV went with an electric water pump. With electric power steering, and dc/dc converter for charging 12v, electric AC, there are no longer any external moving parts or pulleys on the engine, less leak points, less weight, and less parts to fail. Seems Ford moving toward a similar approach.

 

[fatBatman]

Just for fun, it would be cool if Ford decided to go electric on the water pump. That's the last belt left on the 3.5 Ecoboost in the Powerboost.

Imagine no belts. Do you even need a crank pully?

I had a similar comment earlier. If they went to an electric water pump, they could place it anywhere under the hood or even integrate it into the radiator if they really wanted to. By making it electric, that would also eliminate the need for a thermostat since the computer could turn it on and off whenever the sensors told it to move water. Additionally, since you wouldn't need a crank pully, you could close off the block completely and eliminate the front main seal effectively terminating the crank at the end of the block to rest in a bearing.

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