Great summary: Using 7.2 Pro Power to power your house during an outage + why you cannot disconnect the ground!

[Yves]

I have a proper transfer switch with all wires connected, ground included. I may misunderstand a few things but watching the following videos, I think this is the way to go.




I don't think this will be enough to convince some people as sometime we are all stubborn with our beliefs (Me included)

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[Hullguy]

The house doesn't need a CFCI utility. That's only applicable to plugging directly into the truck with a grounded device, and that's still in-tact. The GFCI of breakers in a home operate as they should when installed as required. Imagine what fun would be had requiring utility-provided GFCI. Yay nuisance trips.

765kV and 765kVa are two different variables, but you know this. Companies like to rate things in Va because it fools the average consumer into believing it's watts, when it's not. Backup power products really love to do this.

Here's a simple explanation for the basic power system w/ ground fault.

I added an extra a. Meant 765kv

 

[HammaMan]

I have a proper transfer switch with all wires connected, ground included. I may misunderstand a few things but watching the following videos, I think this is the way to go.

I don't think this will be enough to convince some people as sometime we are all stubborn with our beliefs (Me included)

The same reason neutral is only bonded at the 'primary' panel is the same reason utility doesn't provide ground, but grounds the neutral at every pole with a transformer or other device on it. Before the neutral arrives to your home, it's literally grounded at every single PoCo device it traverses. This is primarily lightning related. They want lightning attracted to the neutral and loads of grounds to get that voltage / current the hell off of the lines. Unfortunately it doesn't always work that way because lightning is asshoe. Sometimes it's attracted by the earthed neutral, and then proceeds to vaporize every conductor around the transformer and fuse its core.

Within a structure, sub panels float the ground from the neutral for understandable reasons. Where code gets it wrong IMO is detached structures. Every structure needs its own ground rod (grounding is very local). All ground rods should be interconnected, and if the soil is exceptionally poor, you can't have too many ground rods. Ideally, all metal should be connected to the earthed ground. Anyone that's dealt with lightning's destruction, your solution is ground rods everywhere and all of them interconnected. Each of those structures should bond the neutral to the ground as there's a ground rod present (code doesn't want that) .

The argument for such is simple -- the N/G bond is already interconnecting them, thus voltage on the N is present on the G, regardless. Why it's better to bond the N/G at every structure that has a ground rod is redundancy of fault paths (the earth is really bad for this, even in soil like ours with high iron content and moisture). Faulting to both N/G conductors > faulting strictly to ground. When a fault occurs, the goal is to get the OCP device to trip. Then the question becomes, do you run a ground to an out-building with its own earthed ground, and the reason is two fold yes. One, lightning. More ground rods with more connection points = more better zero question about it -- you cannot have a large enough conductor for lightning, or series of them for that matter. Two, having multiple fault paths for stray current in buried wires.

As for lightning, I've got a property that gets dozens of strikes every year. It's struck pretty much everything of value. It's blown up both 50 and 70kVa transformers while vaporizing all of the interconnect wires on the transformer while fusing their cores. I had 2 major strikes not even 4 weeks apart, and decided to solve the problem. I even put a 2nd rod in at the utility pole while they sourced a replacement transformer (utility poles don't have ground rods, they have a bare copper conductor that runs their length and is then attached to the base of the pole in a coil). The linemen were quite curious to what I was doing. I informed them I'd tried it their way, now I'm doing it my way. That was 6 years ago. Despite the lightning continuing as normal, there have been ZERO issues since.

 

[Hullguy]

The same reason neutral is only bonded at the 'primary' panel is the same reason utility doesn't provide ground, but grounds the neutral at every pole with a transformer or other device on it. Before the neutral arrives to your home, it's literally grounded at every single PoCo device it traverses. This is primarily lightning related. They want lightning attracted to the neutral and loads of grounds to get that voltage / current the hell off of the lines. Unfortunately it doesn't always work that way because lightning is asshoe. Sometimes it's attracted by the earthed neutral, and then proceeds to vaporize every conductor around the transformer and fuse its core.

Within a structure, sub panels float the ground from the neutral for understandable reasons. Where code gets it wrong IMO is detached structures. Every structure needs its own ground rod (grounding is very local). All ground rods should be interconnected, and if the soil is exceptionally poor, you can't have too many ground rods. Ideally, all metal should be connected to the earthed ground. Anyone that's dealt with lightning's destruction, your solution is ground rods everywhere and all of them interconnected. Each of those structures should bond the neutral to the ground as there's a ground rod present (code doesn't want that) .

The argument for such is simple -- the N/G bond is already interconnecting them, thus voltage on the N is present on the G, regardless. Why it's better to bond the N/G at every structure that has a ground rod is redundancy of fault paths (the earth is really bad for this, even in soil like ours with high iron content and moisture). Faulting to both N/G conductors > faulting strictly to ground. When a fault occurs, the goal is to get the OCP device to trip. Then the question becomes, do you run a ground to an out-building with its own earthed ground, and the reason is two fold yes. One, lightning. More ground rods with more connection points = more better zero question about it -- you cannot have a large enough conductor for lightning, or series of them for that matter. Two, having multiple fault paths for stray current in buried wires.

As for lightning, I've got a property that gets dozens of strikes every year. It's struck pretty much everything of value. It's blown up both 50 and 70kVa transformers while vaporizing all of the interconnect wires on the transformer while fusing their cores. I had 2 major strikes not even 4 weeks apart, and decided to solve the problem. I even put a 2nd rod in at the utility pole while they sourced a replacement transformer (utility poles don't have ground rods, they have a bare copper conductor that runs their length and is then attached to the base of the pole in a coil). The linemen were quite curious to what I was doing. I informed them I'd tried it their way, now I'm doing it my way. That was 6 years ago. Despite the lightning continuing as normal, there have been ZERO issues since.

 

[Hullguy]

Wow!

 

[Yves]

The same reason neutral is only bonded at the 'primary' panel is the same reason utility doesn't provide ground, but grounds the neutral at every pole with a transformer or other device on it. Before the neutral arrives to your home, it's literally grounded at every single PoCo device it traverses. This is primarily lightning related. They want lightning attracted to the neutral and loads of grounds to get that voltage / current the hell off of the lines. Unfortunately it doesn't always work that way because lightning is asshoe. Sometimes it's attracted by the earthed neutral, and then proceeds to vaporize every conductor around the transformer and fuse its core.

Within a structure, sub panels float the ground from the neutral for understandable reasons. Where code gets it wrong IMO is detached structures. Every structure needs its own ground rod (grounding is very local). All ground rods should be interconnected, and if the soil is exceptionally poor, you can't have too many ground rods. Ideally, all metal should be connected to the earthed ground. Anyone that's dealt with lightning's destruction, your solution is ground rods everywhere and all of them interconnected. Each of those structures should bond the neutral to the ground as there's a ground rod present (code doesn't want that) .

The argument for such is simple -- the N/G bond is already interconnecting them, thus voltage on the N is present on the G, regardless. Why it's better to bond the N/G at every structure that has a ground rod is redundancy of fault paths (the earth is really bad for this, even in soil like ours with high iron content and moisture). Faulting to both N/G conductors > faulting strictly to ground. When a fault occurs, the goal is to get the OCP device to trip. Then the question becomes, do you run a ground to an out-building with its own earthed ground, and the reason is two fold yes. One, lightning. More ground rods with more connection points = more better zero question about it -- you cannot have a large enough conductor for lightning, or series of them for that matter. Two, having multiple fault paths for stray current in buried wires.

As for lightning, I've got a property that gets dozens of strikes every year. It's struck pretty much everything of value. It's blown up both 50 and 70kVa transformers while vaporizing all of the interconnect wires on the transformer while fusing their cores. I had 2 major strikes not even 4 weeks apart, and decided to solve the problem. I even put a 2nd rod in at the utility pole while they sourced a replacement transformer (utility poles don't have ground rods, they have a bare copper conductor that runs their length and is then attached to the base of the pole in a coil). The linemen were quite curious to what I was doing. I informed them I'd tried it their way, now I'm doing it my way. That was 6 years ago. Despite the lightning continuing as normal, there have been ZERO issues since.

It's way too long to read and too technical for me. My wife has a master electrician in her family and he also said the way the connections were done at my house is the way this should be done. When I mentionned that some would not be convince I'm sure you knew that you were one of them

 

[HammaMan]

It's way too long to read and too technical for me. My wife has a master electrician in her family and he also said the way the connections were done at my house is the way this should be done. When I mentionned that some would not be convince I'm sure you knew that you were one of them

It's not a matter of convincing. I didn't say anything about your installation at all. There's more than one way to skin this cat, one isn't more valid than another.

You can get the opinion of a dozen master electricians and still end up with an insufficient answer. In the end opinions are just that -- their answer based on their understanding of the variables at play, regardless if they understand the true underlying variables at play. Hell I have a master electrician that's a neighbor, whose parents also live in the immediate area, and they're still having problems with lightning. They like to blame it on my communication tower, which as well as my structures, have zero issues with lighting. One of us knows what we're doing, and the other has a son that's a master electrician. When arguments fail to convince each other that the other is right, let the fruit bare the truth.

For additional context, I've upgraded the grounding of no less 4 other structures in the area, including a neighbor hit by lightning that caused 40k in damage. Since I've had a go at their electrical systems, all issues have gone away except for the couple whose son is a master electrician. So yeah, you shall know them by their fruit.

 

[Hullguy]

It's not a matter of convincing. I didn't say anything about your installation at all. There's more than one way to skin this cat, one isn't more valid than another.

You can get the opinion of a dozen master electricians and still end up with an insufficient answer. In the end opinions are just that -- their answer based on their understanding of the variables at play, regardless if they understand the true underlying variables at play. Hell I have a master electrician that's a neighbor, whose parents also live in the immediate area, and they're still having problems with lightning. They like to blame it on my communication tower, which as well as my structures, have zero issues with lighting. One of us knows what we're doing, and the other has a son that's a master electrician. When arguments fail to convince each other that the other is right, let the fruit bare the truth.

For additional context, I've upgraded the grounding of no less 4 other structures in the area, including a neighbor hit by lightning that caused 40k in damage. Since I've had a go at their electrical systems, all issues have gone away except for the couple whose son is a master electrician. So yeah, you shall know them by their fruit.

The problem is you whole argument is not “valid”. National Electrical Code says one ground at the service! You can play around all you want but if you do and someone gets hurt or killed or your house burns down you will be found liable. And good luck with the insurance company!

 

[HammaMan]

The problem is you whole argument is not “valid”. National Electrical Code says one ground at the service! You can play around all you want but if you do and someone gets hurt or killed or your house burns down you will be found liable. And good luck with the insurance company!

Which version of the NEC?

Everything I've done has been to code, actually in excess of code. Where code is insufficient (lightning grounding for instance), I use what works. I showed lightning the code book and it blew it up, like a crazy does to a protection order.

It used to be that code was written in blood and lives. It's now turned into a bureaucratic nightmare of people discussing theory while missing data -- not to mention financial interests (early AFI breakers anyone?). Hell that's been the story of govt for quite a while now. Legislation as an excuse for a governing body's existence. A very dangerous precedent for a free people. For crying out loud, they were injecting people with experimental drugs in gas station parking lots last year, no questions asked. That was mandated too, imagine that. Now excess deaths are going through the roof and people are stunned.

The 'master electrician' I referenced above ran a 10/2 to a plug for a camper, piggy backed a 20a GFCI circuit on it. Needless to say an extension cord that was connected to it, was cut resulting in a short, and then a fire. It'd almost threatened my property. After their first lightning damage, he added a ground rod next to a cement pad tied into that 12ga bare copper ground wire in the 10/2 run. After a subsequent strike that destroyed more of their stuff, they decided it was my tower's fault.

Code is really close to being reliable, it's the edge cases where it fails. Governing bodies creating licensing agencies must be lax enough to allow those who don't know what they're doing in whole to scape by. I've found deficiencies in 2 different new homes family members purchased. Mistakes missed by the master electrician who signed off on the work, the code inspector who signed off on it, and missed by the "home inspector" (lol, don't get me started on those jokers).

You shall know them by their fruit.

 

[Yves]

It's not a matter of convincing. I didn't say anything about your installation at all. There's more than one way to skin this cat, one isn't more valid than another.

You can get the opinion of a dozen master electricians and still end up with an insufficient answer. In the end opinions are just that -- their answer based on their understanding of the variables at play, regardless if they understand the true underlying variables at play. Hell I have a master electrician that's a neighbor, whose parents also live in the immediate area, and they're still having problems with lightning. They like to blame it on my communication tower, which as well as my structures, have zero issues with lighting. One of us knows what we're doing, and the other has a son that's a master electrician. When arguments fail to convince each other that the other is right, let the fruit bare the truth.

For additional context, I've upgraded the grounding of no less 4 other structures in the area, including a neighbor hit by lightning that caused 40k in damage. Since I've had a go at their electrical systems, all issues have gone away except for the couple whose son is a master electrician. So yeah, you shall know them by their fruit.

This is kind of my point, you put a lot of emphasis on proper grounding but for the PB gen you put more emphasis on the work around versus the proper grounding. Companies are selling panels for generators with bonding neutral, there must be a reason and don't tell me is to make more money. There are probably bad master electrician as there are bad engineer, bad mechanic etc... But sometime, we can also be wrong with our solutions

 

[Hullguy]

Which version of the NEC?

Everything I've done has been to code, actually in excess of code. Where code is insufficient (lightning grounding for instance), I use what works. I showed lightning the code book and it blew it up, like a crazy does to a protection order.

It used to be that code was written in blood and lives. It's now turned into a bureaucratic nightmare of people discussing theory while missing data -- not to mention financial interests (early AFI breakers anyone?). Hell that's been the story of govt for quite a while now. Legislation as an excuse for a governing body's existence. A very dangerous precedent for a free people. For crying out loud, they were injecting people with experimental drugs in gas station parking lots last year, no questions asked. That was mandated too, imagine that. Now excess deaths are going through the roof and people are stunned.

The 'master electrician' I referenced above ran a 10/2 to a plug for a camper, piggy backed a 20a GFCI circuit on it. Needless to say an extension cord that was connected to it, was cut resulting in a short, and then a fire. It'd almost threatened my property. After their first lightning damage, he added a ground rod next to a cement pad tied into that 12ga bare copper ground wire in the 10/2 run. After a subsequent strike that destroyed more of their stuff, they decided it was my tower's fault.

Code is really close to being reliable, it's the edge cases where it fails. Governing bodies creating licensing agencies must be lax enough to allow those who don't know what they're doing in whole to scape by. I've found deficiencies in 2 different new homes family members purchased. Mistakes missed by the master electrician who signed off on the work, the code inspector who signed off on it, and missed by the "home inspector" (lol, don't get me started on those jokers).

You shall know them by their fruit.

Sorry your Master Electrician was a hack. I hope you do not use him as a valid source in our discussion

Lightning protection is covered in NEC Article 242. Which mandates installing a surge suppressor at you service. It is also covered in NFPA 780. This is totally not germane to our discussion on why it’s bad to float the Powerboost ground!

Which Code Book? All of them since 1923!

The NFPA is not a government agency! https://www.nfpa.org/About-NFPA
But their standards become law when the States adopt them.

 

[carmigo]

last section discusses powering your house

Woah! This is insane! (in the best way)

 

[MikeA]

I found FixOrRepairDIY's video informative. Besides the fact I have a whole house generator, I wouldn't use my PB as a house generator. I'm stubborn. I just don't like the idea. However, many want to and do so. Regardless, what I don't get is why someone who buys a PB doesn't also get the 7.2. For all it can do, its cost is almost dirt cheap.

I get ya on the deal where if you get powerboost Why the heck not get the 7.4 kw ! The difference is miniscule !
My scenario was a bit different. I did not want the Hybrid powertrain so I was really glad to be able to get the 2.0 kw pro power. It ads a second alternator and battery. If needed I can run a fridge, tv some led light's and a computer, Or even a window unit 110v AC/heater and some lights. That was a great option for my wants. Also can run a skill saw for cutting lumber off of the tailgate !

 

[HammaMan]

Sorry your Master Electrician was a hack. I hope you do not use him as a valid source in our discussion

Lightning protection is covered in NEC Article 242. Which mandates installing a surge suppressor at you service. It is also covered in NFPA 780. This is totally not germane to our discussion on why it’s bad to float the Powerboost ground!

Which Code Book? All of them since 1923!

The NFPA is not a government agency! https://www.nfpa.org/About-NFPA
But their standards become law when the States adopt them.

Yeah, no quoting of other 'ME's. One saving grace so to speak about NEC and other such large publications being law, laws are free to obtain. Surge suppression devices only divert L1 / L2 to G under voltage spikes. Unfortunately they've got a max rating. One strike blew up not only the panel surge suppression, but a couple UPS units as well. The strike that was the final straw is the one that zapped me through my mouse and fused the core of a 70kva transformer, as well as literally vaporizing all but one of the shorter interconnect lines (incoming aerial lines were fine). Even the linemen were stunned at the power of the strike saying they've never seen vaporized lines before. There was vaporized aluminum plasma remnants everywhere they were near.

As for floating the PB's ground at the incoming wire to the home being different than other generator interconnections is due to the fact that the generator is protecting itself from becoming energized via the GFCI chassis bonding. Home backup generators, and generators on the ground in general are for the most part just dumb devices with at best an AVR and a generic breaker. The PB's inverter is a different class of device entirely that's drawing its power from the HVB, augmented by the 2 way inverter attached to the motor. Interconnecting to the home as utility does provides same basic operation, but with an even safer set of variables.

 

[HammaMan]

I get ya on the deal where if you get powerboost Why the heck not get the 7.4 kw ! The difference is miniscule !
My scenario was a bit different. I did not want the Hybrid powertrain so I was really glad to be able to get the 2.0 kw pro power. It ads a second alternator and battery. If needed I can run a fridge, tv some led light's and a computer, Or even a window unit 110v AC/heater and some lights. That was a great option for my wants. Also can run a skill saw for cutting lumber off of the tailgate !

It will put up to 7.55 kW. The difference in the PB's PPOB vs the non hybrid unit is that it can power from the battery alone. There's 800Wh of energy that can be used from the battery before the engine starts, and if the load is below ~1.6kW, the truck runs in hybrid mode vs the standard F150 and 250's PPOB requiring full-time engine running.

For instance running a refer and a freezer, the PB would end up using 1/10th of the gas, or less vs the other PPOB systems. Both the 2.4 and 7.4kW powerboost PPOB work in this manner. Personally I don't think it was even worth offering a 2.4kW unit w/ it. The PPOB trimmed lightnings have both of the PB's inverter options. The 2.4kW in the frunk / cab, and the bed option with the 7.4kw as well offering a combined output of 9.6kW worth of power to tap.

This is independent of the home backup option that allows the lightning to feed its HVB to a separately purchased inverter that stays in the home. This is why the connector used for the charge station pro utilizes the DCFC pins whereas all other home charging uses that stand J1772

Charge station pro w/ HV home back feed

VS all other AC home chargers with J1772

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