Will this idea work to power my house off 7.2 kw Pro Power?

[CLT-PB]

Hello all. I just purchased my first F-150 ('23 Powerboost Lariat) and these forums have been great for doing research and after buying the truck. I've read many of the threads about powering a house off the Pro Power and the neutral issue but I haven’t seen my specific question/solution addressed. I’m no cleverer than anyone else and I’m sure someone has tried it.

Like most folks, I would prefer to power my whole electrical panel from the truck rather than choosing 8-10 circuits to move over to the Generac transfer switch panel with switched neutral (http://tinyurl.com/nhfx6nws). The Generac would work fine, but I would prefer the flexibility of being able to power any of my circuits if I choose, managing the load manually.

My house for some reason has the meter and 200 amp main breaker outside the house, and the ground and neutral are bonded there. My indoor “main panel” is really a subpanel that also has a 200 amp main breaker; the ground and neutral are not bonded because it’s a subpanel. See drawing.

My preferred solution would be to put 30 amps into my panel from the truck and use a breaker interlock (http://tinyurl.com/5n8p9hya) to prevent both the generator input and utility input from being on at the same time. That of course leaves the problem of switching the neutral. My solution would be to use a 200 amp disconnect (http://tinyurl.com/4b5e7zcv) between my main breaker outside the house and subpanel inside the house to switch the neutral (although I guess I could/should switch the hots as well). Before turning on power from the truck generator, I would throw the switch to open the existing service neutral, therefore isolating the existing neutral/ground bond so the truck doesn’t trip. If I forgot to do that, the truck would just sense a fault and trip. When it’s time to go back on utility power, I close the switch again. So basically I would have to throw two switches – the 30 amp on the panel to bring in the truck feed, and the utility service disconnect to isolate the existing bonded neutral-ground.

I don’t see why this wouldn’t work. It seems to me that as long as you can switch open the neutral downstream of the existing neutral-ground bond, the bond will be isolated and it should work. This is basically just like the PITA solution people have suggested of unbonding the neutral and ground in the main panel. There is still a path to earth. It seems safe. I don’t know if NEC would approve, but I don’t see why not. It’s just a safety service disconnect.

Any thoughts? Please tell me if I am an idiot.

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[UGADawg96]

Paging @Hullguy

 

[Gros Ventre]

If I understand your proposed hookup, I believe it will work. What you are doing is adding switches into the circuit that move the neutral and hots. Then inside your house you shut the power breaker feed from the truck. As long as you maintain the interlock with the top panel feed breaker, you should be safe. Make sure your cable and plugs have four wires (EG Hot, Hot, Neutral & Ground). Some people will try and do it with three wires. In days gone by the NEC would let you use the ground as the neutral return path... but that is long gone (But make sure your house is set up for 4 wires).

 

[HammaMan]

No, you don't want to have a random neutral disconnect. That's a great way to accidentally cook a lot of your 120v devices.

The solution is stupidly simple, safe, and effective. Use a standard generator interlock kit on your panel with appropriate receptacle and create the PB dog bone.

https://www.f150gen14.com/forum/threads/transfer-switch-gameplan-thoughts.19520/#post-379173

 

[CLT-PB]

No, you don't want to have a random neutral disconnect. That's a great way to accidentally cook a lot of your 120v devices.

The solution is stupidly simple, safe, and effective. Use a standard generator interlock kit on your panel with appropriate receptacle and create the PB dog bone.

https://www.f150gen14.com/forum/threads/transfer-switch-gameplan-thoughts.19520/#post-379173

If I switched the neutral AND hots coming to my panel instead of just the neutral, I think it should work without frying anything. I see your point about switching just the neutral - if I forgot to close the switch when going back to utility power, that would be a problem.

Regarding your dog bone solution, you're suggesting basically just not connecting the ground, correct? I've read you and @Hullguy debate and frankly am not qualified to pick a side. I won't have an inspector here any time soon, so I'm not overly concerned about code (although I do follow it). The only potential safety issue would be between the truck and the inlet (where the ground is disconnected). There would be no path back to the ground rod, right? So what if there was a nick in the extension cord and someone picked it up? Could they get shocked, or would the truck GFCI save them? Or what about a short somewhere in the generator system on the truck? Could it basically electrify anything metal on the truck and shock someone, or would it just trip the GFCI? I'm pretty capable with household electric - I wired a whole house - but I basically just follow NEC practice and do not thoroughly understand the theory behind grounding. If it's safe, disconnecting the ground is certainly an easier way to do it.

 

[Hullguy]

Hello all. I just purchased my first F-150 ('23 Powerboost Lariat) and these forums have been great for doing research and after buying the truck. I've read many of the threads about powering a house off the Pro Power and the neutral issue but I haven’t seen my specific question/solution addressed. I’m no cleverer than anyone else and I’m sure someone has tried it.

Like most folks, I would prefer to power my whole electrical panel from the truck rather than choosing 8-10 circuits to move over to the Generac transfer switch panel with switched neutral (http://tinyurl.com/nhfx6nws). The Generac would work fine, but I would prefer the flexibility of being able to power any of my circuits if I choose, managing the load manually.

My house for some reason has the meter and 200 amp main breaker outside the house, and the ground and neutral are bonded there. My indoor “main panel” is really a subpanel that also has a 200 amp main breaker; the ground and neutral are not bonded because it’s a subpanel. See drawing.

My preferred solution would be to put 30 amps into my panel from the truck and use a breaker interlock (http://tinyurl.com/5n8p9hya) to prevent both the generator input and utility input from being on at the same time. That of course leaves the problem of switching the neutral. My solution would be to use a 200 amp disconnect (http://tinyurl.com/4b5e7zcv) between my main breaker outside the house and subpanel inside the house to switch the neutral (although I guess I could/should switch the hots as well). Before turning on power from the truck generator, I would throw the switch to open the existing service neutral, therefore isolating the existing neutral/ground bond so the truck doesn’t trip. If I forgot to do that, the truck would just sense a fault and trip. When it’s time to go back on utility power, I close the switch again. So basically I would have to throw two switches – the 30 amp on the panel to bring in the truck feed, and the utility service disconnect to isolate the existing bonded neutral-ground.

I don’t see why this wouldn’t work. It seems to me that as long as you can switch open the neutral downstream of the existing neutral-ground bond, the bond will be isolated and it should work. This is basically just like the PITA solution people have suggested of unbonding the neutral and ground in the main panel. There is still a path to earth. It seems safe. I don’t know if NEC would approve, but I don’t see why not. It’s just a safety service disconnect.

Any thoughts? Please tell me if I am an idiot.

You are only an idiot if you use the dog bone!
this is exactly how my house is wired. You need the neutral switching transfer switch.

 

[HammaMan]

If I switched the neutral AND hots coming to my panel instead of just the neutral, I think it should work without frying anything. I see your point about switching just the neutral - if I forgot to close the switch when going back to utility power, that would be a problem.

Regarding your dog bone solution, you're suggesting basically just not connecting the ground, correct? I've read you and @Hullguy debate and frankly am not qualified to pick a side. I won't have an inspector here any time soon, so I'm not overly concerned about code (although I do usually follow it). The only potential safety issue would be between the truck and the inlet (where the ground is disconnected). So what if there was a nick in the extension cord and someone picked it up? Could they get shocked, or would the truck GFCI save them? Or what about a short somewhere in the generator system on the truck? Could it basically electrify anything metal on the truck and shock someone, or would it just trip the GFCI? I'm pretty capable with household electric - I wired a whole house - but I basically just follow NEC practice and do not thoroughly understand the theory behind grounding. If it's safe, disconnecting the ground is certainly an easier way to do it.

(which cord?, traditional extension cord connected to an appropriate outlet in the house that has GFI if it's an outdoor or garage socket (homes GFI outlets still function as they should), as for the PB's cord to home, the dog bone is used to break the ground at the house keeping the cord itself protected from a cut, short, etc...)

There's no risk of electrocution without a return path to the truck (which its GFI catches). The truck chassis is bonded to the inverter's ground, if there is a return path to the truck it will trip the GFI. One would need contact both the neutral and a hot, or both hots, and there's nothing that will prevent electrocution under that scenario as that's the nature of electricity in all forms.

There's at least a dozen of us using the ground-breaking dog bone that I know of.

 

[CLT-PB]

So, playing devil’s advocate, why are people saying it’s dangerous? What’s the danger scenario that keeping that ground continuous would prevent? I agree that following code just because it says so doesn’t make sense, and I still sometimes wire switch loops without a neutral because I couldn’t think of a good reason not to. But the code was written by people who know a lot more about this stuff than me.

Also, why use the dog bone? Why not just not hook up the ground in the inlet box?

 

[HammaMan]

So, playing devil’s advocate, why are people saying it’s dangerous? What’s the danger scenario that keeping that ground continuous would prevent?

I honestly think people don't understand electricity. The ground is for some reason seen as this magic safety wire. Then there's different types of systems, like the utility for instance that uses the earth as a redundant return path which it really should do at the higher voltages transmission lines run.

I agree that following code just because it says so doesn’t make sense, and I still sometimes wire switch loops without a neutral because I couldn’t think of a good reason not to. But the code was written by people who know a lot more about this stuff than me.

I could go on about the shortcomings of code especially as technology progresses and things end up being in there that someone doesn't actually know why it's there. Furthermore code is a catch-all of sorts to hopefully make sense of what's there for someone coming in further down the line. Hot, neutral, ground all running together makes sense. It's a circuit feed. Ground running with a hot conductor for short-to-ground breaker tripping, best achieved with a non-insulated conductor. If you follow code, you can assume you've got a certain level of safety. It's not all-inclusive however as it'd probably be a dozen volumes or more for niche applications. Instead they lump it into a set of minimums even at the cost of adding unnecessary complexity to niche applications.

Also, why use the dog bone? Why not just not hook up the ground in the inlet box?

For future safety / generator interconnection. You don't want to create something that from outwards appearances, appears correct. The dog bone is a small, cheap, ground disconnect means that has no other utility than that purpose for a GFI generator to connect up to a traditional breaker interlock (also why you label it, remove any ambiguity). Also why you don't want to incorporate it to the interconnect cord itself. The modified dog bone is the easiest way to maintain safety without compromising your generator inlet on the structure or the generator extension cord.

 

[CLT-PB]

That all makes sense. Thanks for the explanation. Your solution would make my life a lot easier. I’ve also noted that several times you’ve asked people for a specific example of when your solution would be dangerous and I haven’t seen one posted. I’d honestly like to see one because, you’re right, it’s just been drilled into everyone not to mess with the ground wire despite the fact we use all kinds of things that aren’t grounded.

So, if there were a cut or a short on the cord going from the truck to the house, you’re saying the ground wire would carry it back to the ground at the truck frame and trip the breaker? Wouldn’t the unbalanced current on the hot and neutral also trip the GFCI? like I said, I struggle to understand grounding. I need to find a good article on it.

 

[Hullguy]

That all makes sense. Thanks for the explanation. Your solution would make my life a lot easier. I’ve also noted that several times you’ve asked people for a specific example of when your solution would be dangerous and I haven’t seen one posted. I’d honestly like to see one because, you’re right, it’s just been drilled into everyone not to mess with the ground wire despite the fact we use all kinds of things that aren’t grounded.

So, if there were a cut or a short on the cord going from the truck to the house, you’re saying the ground wire would carry it back to the ground at the truck frame and trip the breaker? Wouldn’t the unbalanced current on the hot and neutral also trip the GFCI? like I said, I struggle to understand grounding. I need to find a good article on it.

I disagree with what HammaMan has stated about the electrical code as technology changes. It’s a case of it’s not broken don’t fix it. The Electrical Code is updated every 3 years, largely as technology has improved and impacted the electrical system in homes and buildings. Ie, having to increase the size of neutrals to carry the excess current caused by computers and electronics that circuit breakers couldn’t ”see”.
The Gound, the “magical” saftey wire has been in the Code since the 1920s. as a saftey! The ground is supposed to be bonded to all of the metal systems in your house. Duct work, plumbing, cable tv, phone wires.
The ground is supposed to supply an electrical path that has absolutely no resistance back to the panel. If there is a short circuit it allows a huge, instant current flow that trips the circuit breaker.
If you remove the trucks ground and provide power to your house through the PowerBoost this safety is removed! This is your primary safety. GFI protection is secondary as well as Arc Fault protection.
You may not be having an inspector over, but the Electrical Code is written to provide protection to lives, buildings and property. In many states and municipalities it has been written into the law.
Also, if there is a fire or incident on or in your propert, good luck getting your insurance company to cover you!
With what you want as far as flexibility as to what circuits you want to use why not install a propane powered whole house generator with an automatic transfer switch?
you have an incredible truck with many functions. Why not spend a little money to do things correctly?

 

[CLT-PB]

From the perspective of a non-expert it seems like you and @HammaMan both make good points, and I'm not knowledgeable enough to argue against either of you.

As for a propane generator, that is definitely not in the budget. It's a shame they don't make a simple 200 amp three-pole transfer switch that is not insanely expensive. The only one I saw poking around online was $4K.

 

[v2h8484]

If you remove the trucks ground and provide power to your house through the PowerBoost this safety is removed!

What do you mean by "safety is removed"? How is it less safe than when you just have loads plugged into the truck (as Ford designed to do)? For context, the house wiring and loads are always grounded.

 

[Supercub]

Hello all. I just purchased my first F-150 ('23 Powerboost Lariat) and these forums have been great for doing research and after buying the truck. I've read many of the threads about powering a house off the Pro Power and the neutral issue but I haven’t seen my specific question/solution addressed. I’m no cleverer than anyone else and I’m sure someone has tried it.

Like most folks, I would prefer to power my whole electrical panel from the truck rather than choosing 8-10 circuits to move over to the Generac transfer switch panel with switched neutral (http://tinyurl.com/nhfx6nws). The Generac would work fine, but I would prefer the flexibility of being able to power any of my circuits if I choose, managing the load manually.

My house for some reason has the meter and 200 amp main breaker outside the house, and the ground and neutral are bonded there. My indoor “main panel” is really a subpanel that also has a 200 amp main breaker; the ground and neutral are not bonded because it’s a subpanel. See drawing.

My preferred solution would be to put 30 amps into my panel from the truck and use a breaker interlock (http://tinyurl.com/5n8p9hya) to prevent both the generator input and utility input from being on at the same time. That of course leaves the problem of switching the neutral. My solution would be to use a 200 amp disconnect (http://tinyurl.com/4b5e7zcv) between my main breaker outside the house and subpanel inside the house to switch the neutral (although I guess I could/should switch the hots as well). Before turning on power from the truck generator, I would throw the switch to open the existing service neutral, therefore isolating the existing neutral/ground bond so the truck doesn’t trip. If I forgot to do that, the truck would just sense a fault and trip. When it’s time to go back on utility power, I close the switch again. So basically I would have to throw two switches – the 30 amp on the panel to bring in the truck feed, and the utility service disconnect to isolate the existing bonded neutral-ground.

I don’t see why this wouldn’t work. It seems to me that as long as you can switch open the neutral downstream of the existing neutral-ground bond, the bond will be isolated and it should work. This is basically just like the PITA solution people have suggested of unbonding the neutral and ground in the main panel. There is still a path to earth. It seems safe. I don’t know if NEC would approve, but I don’t see why not. It’s just a safety service disconnect.

Any thoughts? Please tell me if I am an idiot.

I have the same set up, newer home with 200 amp service at the meter. My sub/main panel is in the garage. I had a 220 outlet put in next to the panel when it was built, for the gen cable input. I made up a cable with the ground folded back in one plug and it works fine. I turn off the main to the house, connect the gen, and turn on that 220 input switch. It all works fine. I have not tried it with the ground connected, probably will, but suspect it will not like it. Worse case it faults the gen and i will reset it and go back to tried and true.

 

[Hullguy]

What do you mean by "safety is removed"? How is it less safe than when you just have loads plugged into the truck (as Ford designed to do)? For context, the house wiring and loads are always grounded.

You no longer have a grounding system. You’ve removed it’s connection point

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