Lightning Reservation Holders Beware...

[astricklin]

you are missing the point...it is not what Elon feels like but that there is one price for the product that you can either choose to pay or not. Replace Tesla with Rivian or Apple or something else...

Or ya know, every other store you go to. I don't have to negotiate with the cashier at the grocery store or target or best buy. I walk in and I either buy the product at the price they have listed or I don't. I don't have to worry if I have Walmart do an order that is 'ship to store' that when I get to the store they are going to try to charge me an extra 10% or something.
Why does the vehicle sales process have to be such a monumentally stressful process and you're always one misstep away from getting screwed.

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[personalt]

So what you are saying is that saving $5K to $10K off of MSRP is not worth an hour or so of Internet research to find a vehicle at a good price? That has typically been my savings on Fusions, Suburbans and Volvos.

When selecting brand A vs brand B they try to do the math in their head as to what the final price will be and compare the after discount price. So if MSRP became final price MSRP (or price manufacture discounts) will drop.

 

[adoublee]

you are missing the point...it is not what Elon feels like but that there is one price for the product that you can either choose to pay or not. Replace Tesla with Rivian or Apple or something else...

Yes but there is no sense of value per dollar spent as there are no consist model year builds and Elon pulls features out he decides you don't really want. Add shenanigans like the pricing changes Tesla has pulled with their solar tile roof, and they become scary to do business with.

 

[DoomTrain]

Tesla's AGM is 30% currently, that's without lowering the cost of batteries (4680). Cant wait to see how close ford is doing with the lightning!

 

[BennyTheBeaver]

The argument of playing the game and talking dealers down to below "MSRP" isn't an argument for dealers, it's really exposing the issue.

The dealer won't lose money on a sale. So the vehicle you negotiated is still making the dealer money. Any margin between what Ford sells the vehicle to the dealer, and what the dealer sells to the consumer is a loss for the consumer.

Negotiating and haggling for a good price is why alot of people have anxiety when it comes to car shopping. Heck, 3 members of my extended family refuse to play that game and ask me to handle negotiations for them. We all hate it.

There are good honest dealers out there, but typically when there is money to be made, they are going to do whatever they can to make it.

 

[greenne]

The argument of playing the game and talking dealers down to below "MSRP" isn't an argument for dealers, it's really exposing the issue.

The dealer won't lose money on a sale. So the vehicle you negotiated is still making the dealer money. Any margin between what Ford sells the vehicle to the dealer, and what the dealer sells to the consumer is a loss for the consumer.

Negotiating and haggling for a good price is why alot of people have anxiety when it comes to car shopping. Heck, 3 members of my extended family refuse to play that game and ask me to handle negotiations for them. We all hate it.

There are good honest dealers out there, but typically when there is money to be made, they are going to do whatever they can to make it.

Exactly what do you think Ford(or anyone else) will do with that "extra margin" they get when they cut the dealers out of the equation? If you think they will give it back to the consumer, I got a bridge to sell you. No they will bake that into the new MSRP and laugh their way all the way to the bank.

The only difference is that $$ will go to big Ford instead of a dealer.

I get that it will be less stressful, but I don't buy the assertion that you'll save any money. IN fact by limiting choices you are making it easier for the mfr to inflate prices.

I'll make it a little easier to understand... the way it is now you have potentially thousands of Ford dealers vying for your business. When you go to direct sale, you have one producer and only one choice...take it or leave it. Thats the issue...

 

[BennyTheBeaver]

Exactly what do you think Ford(or anyone else) will do with that "extra margin" they get when they cut the dealers out of the equation? If you think they will give it back to the consumer, I got a bridge to sell you. No they will bake that into the new MSRP and laugh their way all the way to the bank.

The only difference is that $$ will go to big Ford instead of a dealer.

I get that it will be less stressful, but I don't buy the assertion that you'll save any money. IN fact by limiting choices you are making it easier for the mfr to inflate prices.

I'll make it a little easier to understand... the way it is now you have potentially thousands of Ford dealers vying for your business. When you go to direct sale, you have one producer and only one choice...take it or leave it. Thats the issue...

I'd rather it go to the manufacturer who can use it for testing, investing in manufacturing lines, quality components for the vehicle than a middle man that does nothing but take up extra time in the process and pocket money.

I don't expect Ford to give all of that margin back to the consumer but it's not unreasonable for Ford to take some and standardize the pricing so a customer in Oregon and a customer in Florida pay the same price.

Currently my neighbor and I could go to the same dealership and pay vastly different prices for the same vehicle? How is that beneficial to the consumer?

I'd gladly take the manufacturer over the dealer, over and over again. I know exactly what I'm going to invest in my vehicle, I get to order exactly what I want (not get stuck with what's on a lot with a bunch of options I could care less about), and there is no BS. The manufacturer still needs to price their vehicles competitively because they are competing against other manufacturers.

I can try make it a little easier to understand too...for almost everything else I purchase there is a set price. Home electronics, food...most things that are a product, not a service, have a set price. Vehicles on the other hand...I can end up paying $1,500 more than the next customer because a sales guy got chewed out by his boss right before I walk in, or simply because I might be a woman and people think I don't know what I'm talking about (which infuriates me). How stupid is that?

 

[techguydave]

The only difference is that $$ will go to big Ford instead of a dealer.

I'm 1000% OK with that. Ford will reinvest that into the company, which will provide more value to me in my current vehicle and any future vehicles I may buy. Ford makes the vehicle, they deserve the money that dealerships are getting.

That money currently goes to a middleman whose only value is that I can take a look at the vehicle before buying/ordering it. But Ford can do that.

 

[personalt]

Exactly what do you think Ford(or anyone else) will do with that "extra margin" they get when they cut the dealers out of the equation? If you think they will give it back to the consumer, I got a bridge to sell you. No they will bake that into the new MSRP and laugh their way all the way to the bank.

The only difference is that $$ will go to big Ford instead of a dealer.

I get that it will be less stressful, but I don't buy the assertion that you'll save any money. IN fact by limiting choices you are making it easier for the mfr to inflaIte prices.

I'll make it a little easier to understand... the way it is now you have potentially thousands of Ford dealers vying for your business. When you go to direct sale, you have one producer and only one choice...take it or leave it. Thats the issue...

They will not be able to bake in most of it.. Right now It doesnt take you long to figure out that that you have a reasonable shot at buying this $50K ford for $46K. if you also like a slimiar Chevy truck you would be pricing comparing against 46K. If MSRP is the final price then manufactures will be more competitive on MSRP. Will they keep some of the margin, sure. But the car sales process is super slow and that costs money. We ultimately pay for the fact that it takes a car salesman 4-8 hours to sell you a car/truck

 

[astricklin]

We ultimately pay for the fact that it takes a car salesman 4-8 hours to sell you a car/truck

This is yet another game they play. It should take no more than 30 minutes to sign paperwork after I'm finished looking at vehicles and doing a test drive. I should be able to purchase a car in 2 to 3 hours max, not an entire day.

 

[PungoteagueDave]

"With a direct to consumer model everyone would pay INVOICE price which would become MSRP."

I don't believe this for one second....

It is a truth by definition. The dealer model introduces a middleman, so there is duplicate competition - competition first between manufacturers at the MSRP level and manufacturer inducements, and secondarily between dealers selling the same marque. The CORRECT economic competition is between PRODUCTS, not between vendors of identical products. The dealership model introduces gamesmanship and consumer abuse - the 'smart' consumer develops techniques to gain pricing advantage and the 'weaker' consumer pays the price. Transparent pricing IS invoice pricing, and the consumer drives pricing decisions based on product quality and relative cost as presented by the producer. The consumer makes decisions to purchase based on relative value on a transparent basis. Manufacturer pricing is invoice pricing, full stop.

 

[greenne]

It is a truth by definition. The dealer model introduces a middleman, so there is duplicate competition - competition first between manufacturers at the MSRP level and manufacturer inducements, and secondarily between dealers selling the same marque. The CORRECT economic competition is between PRODUCTS, not between vendors of identical products. The dealership model introduces gamesmanship and consumer abuse - the 'smart' consumer develops techniques to gain pricing advantage and the 'weaker' consumer pays the price. Transparent pricing IS invoice pricing, and the consumer drives pricing decisions based on product quality and relative cost as presented by the producer. The consumer makes decisions to purchase based on relative value on a transparent basis. Manufacturer pricing is invoice pricing, full stop.

So you're trying to tell me that if you're buying a new appliance(say a new washer)...you don't get the price from Lowes and then check to see if it on sale at Home depot...or call the local appliance store to see if they'll beat it? Because I sure do.

Or if you see a TV on amazon you don't also check costco or Best Buy?

Isn't capitalism at its core gamesmanship? Where in life does it say purchasing products has to be fair? Its all about supply and demand...economics 101.

 

[FordLightning]

Hey Guys,

I am not in the market for the new Lightning but I have been for the Bronco and thought I would try to make people aware of how Ford has really made a mess of this whole "reservation" system. Ford initially promised to build the Bronco's as close as possible in order by timestamp of the reservations that were then converted to orders, if a build did not have parts constraints, which is another story. So they are wrapping up production of the 2021 model year and orders open up tomorrow for 2022 orders with MANY unfilled orders from reservation holders having to change over to 2022. Ford has now laid out an allocation system that seems to completely ignore the reservation system to the point that many people's orders may now get pushed to 2023 based on what dealer they ordered from. So you may want to do your research on this as the dealers who offered aggressive pricing are now getting punished because they accepted so many orders from reservation holders. You can read more at the links below:
https://www.bronco6g.com/forum/threads/day-6-my22-allocation-formula-–-what-action-can-we-take.25273/#post-885266
https://thebronconation.com/forums/...-hurt-small-dealers-and-their-customers.6833/
https://www.bronco6g.com/forum/thre...on-no-one-said-it-was-going-to-be-easy.25052/

Good Luck!

Thanks Mean Red GT,

Really appreciate you bringing this issue to light. I consider myself to be a strong negotiator, but reasonable, and have never needed to resort to buying ”out of town” for a vehicle.

So initially, I wasn’t worried. I pre-ordered back in May and was willing to pay MSRP if Ford didn’t offer X-Plan. Assumed a reasonable dealer wouldn’t make me move my order over an ADM when they were already getting MSRP.

Lesson learned, when Ford forced me to pick a dealer on the reservation I picked the closest dealer (don’t have a relationship with any of them, I have only lived in MD for 8 years; from PA). I chose Koon’s Ford in Annapolis…what a mistake!

Now due to Ford’s ”dealer friendly” policy, they have become anti-customer and limiting flexibility to change my mind.

In case you were thinking I had time to “interview” my dealer and pick a trustworthy dealer; once I made the decision to reserve, I wanted to get a time stamp immediately.

 

[rdr854]

Thanks Mean Red GT,

Really appreciate you bringing this issue to light. I consider myself to be a strong negotiator, but reasonable, and have never needed to resort to buying ”out of town” for a vehicle.

So initially, I wasn’t worried. I pre-ordered back in May and was willing to pay MSRP if Ford didn’t offer X-Plan. Assumed a reasonable dealer wouldn’t make me move my order over an ADM when they were already getting MSRP.

Lesson learned, when Ford forced me to pick a dealer on the reservation I picked the closest dealer (don’t have a relationship with any of them, I have only lived in MD for 8 years; from PA). I chose Koon’s Ford in Annapolis…what a mistake!

Now due to Ford’s ”dealer friendly” policy, they have become anti-customer and limiting flexibility to change my mind.

In case you were thinking I had time to “interview” my dealer and pick a trustworthy dealer; once I made the decision to reserve, I wanted to get a time stamp immediately.

You can change dealers without loosing your time stamp at least up and until you place your order.

 

[FordLightning]

You can change dealers without loosing your time stamp at least up and until you place your order.

That’s great, which dealer can I switch to that won’t charge me ADM and is also stating Ford won’t penalize me based on allocation?

This is the crux…this forum has provided a great list of honest dealers (none in MD), but now Ford is telling us and holding meetings with dealers, telling them they will not receive anymore allocation even if a reservation is transferred.

I hope you understand my complaint. I can’t switch and guarantee that I won’t be penalized. To add insult to injury, I never worked with my dealer…Ford forced me to select a dealer when I placed the order, a truly random selection.

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