Ford cutting workforce at F-150 Lightning plant in Dearborn

[Spiffy]

I don't believe the mandates will stick.
If they do then there is going to be a buying investment.
A decent loaded f150 left in a storage will grow 40% in value. Ice I mean.

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[Spiffy]

I don't believe the mandates will stick.
If they do then there is going to be a buying investment.
A decent loaded f150 left in a storage will grow 40% in value. Ice I mean.

Besides the public doesn't want them or can utilize them. Infrastructure won't support the idea,
Things will change after the elections.

 

[HammaMan]

We'll see. They're pretty damn restrictive up and down the board. The only way this makes sense is to have PHEVs pretty much mandatory. Just no way to reduce tailpipe emission by more than half. Outside of exotic purpose-built engines, modern transmission driven ICE vehicles just don't any more room on the bone to increase efficiency. We're getting diminishing returns at this point.

 

[Snakebitten]

Complete overreach.
But, is a well practiced technique historically. Repetitive and cyclical.

CARB plays the same tactics.

I used to let it get me riled up. (20's<>40's)
Now approaching 70 years old I've taught myself to roll my eyes and maybe make a few disparaging comments at most. They're a bunch of goobers.

 

[sssinc]

FYI, I drive a Lightning. Coming from a previous ICE F-150 (and having driven a RAM and Tundra for work), I would never go back. In my very humble opinion, it's better at everything, even towing. Respectfully (not trying to start a fight), here are some of the statements I hear about EVs:

Can it tow 320 miles in a straight shot? Nope. Can I tow 160 miles which is more than enough for where we live and travel to? Yep. Towing actually feels more responsive, smoother, and with more control than an ICE. Soon that 160 mile limitation won't be as big of a deal since pull thru chargers are currently being built and the infrastructure ramped up.

What about Fast Charging, it's so unreliable and hard to find?
Access to Superchargers has made that a thing of simplicity. I have yet to have an issue where I run out of charge because a DCFC (DC Fast Charger) is too far away, or not working. Does it happen? Yes. Do ICE vehicles run out of gas and need someone to go get a can at the closest gas station? Yes.

But DCFC takes so long...you have to stop all the time.
I don't know about you, but every 4-5 hours (my range) I need to stop for a pee break, snacks, or food. Since I have kids, a wife, and dogs; make that every 2-3 hours. Why do I need to be able to drive more than 5 hours at a time if I struggle to even sit in a vehicle that long with my family? I plug in, go get my stuff done, and by the time I'm done I have enough juice to keep going until the next pee break. Until you actually use an EV, everything seems scary.

But, electricity is so expensive to charge up your EV.
I fill up at home. I pay $0.074 per kW during off-peak (when I charge). My "tank" gets 320 miles. It costs me less than $10 to get 320 miles. If you DCFC, then yes, the price is comparable to gas (not more).

But, they have battery issues after 100,000 miles.
This is the biggest myth about Electric Vehicles. The batteries don't just die at 100k miles, yes they lose some capacity. A Lightning owner just hit close to 100k miles and they still have 97% of their original capacity remaining. So, instead of getting 320 miles of range, they get 310. Is that broken? Nope. Does the battery need to be replaced? Nope.

But, ICE vehicles don't have to worry about range loss with battery degradation.
Do you think that after 100k miles you are still getting your full MPG? No. Are you even getting 97% of you previous MPG?

But, they catch on fire.
ICE vehicle are 20 to 30 times more likely to catch on fire based on the amount of ICE on the road and percentage of them that have caught on fire.

I'm honestly not trying to start a fight, or even make a claim the Lightning is better than an ICE truck. I'm not trying to convince you to buy one, get the truck YOU like and the truck that makes sense for you. I love my truck, you love yours....awesome! There are use cases where an EV doesn't make sense. Just trying to point out how exaggerated a lot of what has been reported in the media is. EV's aren't as scary as some people make them out to be. For those that are so anti-EV, go test drive a Lightning, it may surprise you.

Own a full electric sedan and an F150 Hybrid - both great. Probably will go for a Lightning when my lease on the hybrid is up since I can charge at home 99 (% of the time). Have heard all the same comments you have and would respond as you have. The F150 Hybrid is great and should be a must for anyone not yet ready to go to a full EV or doesn’t have the ability to charge at home-I average 22-23 mpg City and Highway (get 600-700 miles/tank).

 

[Suns_PSD]

I will NEVER by an EV or Hybrid vehicle. And, I can't stand the fact that our government, who has no money, is is ringing up debt on a credit card to provide incentives for people to buy one these things. IMO, if the technology cannot stand on its own two feet financially then it should die. Rant is done .

F**k Yes.

And the Feds should quit subsidizing oil as well right?

chirp chirp....

Biden budget targets U.S. fossil fuel subsidies | Reuters

"Calculating the cost of U.S. subsidies for the fossil fuel industry is complex because the incentives stretch across the U.S. tax code, but estimates range from $10 to $50 billion per year."

Here are the EV subsidies for comparison.

Subsidies spark EV manufacturing race in U.S. states | Financial Post

Public subsidies for the construction of EV and battery plants are ballooning around the country. Last year, governments approved about US $2 billion in incentives, more than the previous six years combined, according to a database compiled by Good Jobs First.

BTW, I do dig EV's but feel the government has boned this one up, as they usually do.

But regarding the financial incentive argument, as Dr. Phil would say: 'that dog don't hunt boy!'.

 

[walnutF150]

My dog hunts but it only drinks petrol

 

[HammaMan]

Tesla model s just hit 2mil KM (1.25 million miles)
Current battery has 1.35mil KM on it.

he's a madman
https://twitter.com/gem8mingen

 

[HammaMan]

F**k Yes.

And the Feds should quit subsidizing oil as well right?

chirp chirp....

Biden budget targets U.S. fossil fuel subsidies | Reuters

"Calculating the cost of U.S. subsidies for the fossil fuel industry is complex because the incentives stretch across the U.S. tax code, but estimates range from $10 to $50 billion per year."

Here are the EV subsidies for comparison.

Subsidies spark EV manufacturing race in U.S. states | Financial Post

Public subsidies for the construction of EV and battery plants are ballooning around the country. Last year, governments approved about US $2 billion in incentives, more than the previous six years combined, according to a database compiled by Good Jobs First.

BTW, I do dig EV's but feel the government has boned this one up, as they usually do.

But regarding the financial incentive argument, as Dr. Phil would say: 'that dog don't hunt boy!'.

Just the taxes they collect for on-road gas/diesel is like a billion $ a week (I calculated it and dropped it somewhere and then forgot where the number is). Claiming oil is subsidized is hilarious due to the hundreds of billions $$$ they tax the industry. That also doesn't count the oil given to the govt because they've declared themselves "owner" of most of the oil spots.

It's a left pocket right pocket argument.

 

[Suns_PSD]

Just the taxes they collect for on-road gas/diesel is like a billion $ a week (I calculated it and dropped it somewhere and then forgot where the number is). Claiming oil is subsidized is hilarious due to the hundreds of billions $$$ they tax the industry. That also doesn't count the oil given to the govt because they've declared themselves "owner" of most of the oil spots.

It's a left pocket right pocket argument.

First, I'm pro-oil and sell equipment into the industry. I suspect you are involved as well based on your response.

However, paying your corporate taxes is something that all companies are supposed to do. If any industry is allowed to not pay their full tax bill, that's just corporate welfare plain and simply.

So, the fact remains, that oil is 'subsidized' by the Federal government, going on a century, at a rate that is somewhere between 5-25x more than EVs are subsidized in the last year (which was by far and away the most subsidies that EV's have ever received).

I can get behind the idea that the government should not be subsidizing any preferred industries, but let's at least be consistent if we are going to state that. And certainly, a mature industry shouldn't be subsidized.

Furthermore, oil drillers and once again, I personally know and greatly like many, have been in certain cases destroying environments and water supplies with essentially no consequences, where then the government has to come in and pay for clean-up. Meaning once again the tax paying public is subsidizing the industry.

I don't find EV's convenient. But if fuel actually cost what it should based on environmental and health damage and the oil companies were not subsidized by the government which would obviously raise the cost, I'd probably find a way to make a Lightning work quite frankly.

 

[HammaMan]

EVs are very convenient, there's just certain tasks where they're lacking substantially. They're not good at going the distance and towing with anything other than GM's 3klb battery. GM's big battery also can go the distance while also being able to eat a neighborhood worth of power to charge resulting in high miles per minute added. It's just that it's a GM and you can't actually buy them outside of the hummer which is a bigger joke of a vehicle than cybertruck.

 

[Snakebitten]

I am personally convinced that an EV that can be charged at home while you count sheep, AND has a big enough electron storage tank for your daily commute, is incredibly convenient.

I'm not saying convenience is the sole factor in the vehicle acquisition equation, but in the described context, the EV shines.

And it's the first 3 or 4 miles of every trip that it's most noticeable. No reason to accommodate fluids not up to operating temps. Just get in and go.
And because of the nature of home charging, the gas gauge never even comes into play. You leave every morning with it Full, whatever you decide Full actually means.

It's funny, when you think about it, but in the conditions I use an EV, I now consider standing at the pump waiting to fill the gas tank up in the Powerboost is what's inconvenient! Lol

I think if everyone had a Powerboost and the EV of their choice, they'd realize the glass is half (or more) full with either of them. Both are amazing vehicles in an amazing automotive era.

 

[HammaMan]

Yeah, with the prices of used bolt EUVs, it's an attractive little beater. If the used price is below $25k, it qualifies for instant $4k tax credit. They can be had w/ heated / cooled seats for that price as well.

 

[Snakebitten]

That EUV Bolt is a bargain for the battery management and chemistry at those prices.
And I was absolutely capable of being satisfied with one if YOU hadn't contaminated me. And if the Ford dealership hadn't ran into my Leaf in their parking lot.

But now?
After climbing in the Mach-E GTPE every morning for a month? And then replacing the tires with non-EV tires just made it even better!
Not interested!
I will absolutely recommend the Bolt EUV, but no way am I settling now.

 

[HammaMan]

That EUV Bolt is a bargain for the battery management and chemistry at those prices.
And I was absolutely capable of being satisfied with one if YOU hadn't contaminated me. And if the Ford dealership hadn't ran into my Leaf in their parking lot.

But now?
After climbing in the Mach-E GTPE every morning for a month? And then replacing the tires with non-EV tires just made it even better!
Not interested!
I will absolutely recommend the Bolt EUV, but no way am I settling now.

Ha, I just said to test drive one or try and get a loaner

The bolt EUV is pretty good beater though. Same range as the PE, 0-60 mid 6 second range. Cooled seats rock, still can't believe MME got shorted there!

$21k w/ tax rebate -- Quite a bit of vehicle for the price including supercruise (mapped highways only, no hands-on lane centering like ford provides -- these do accept comma 3x though. Better deal than tesla 3 RWD model.

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