Winches and other high current equipment

[GarageMahal]

Does anyone have any information or insight into how much 12v draw can be wired into the new Lightning? I am hoping to put a front receiver hitch on for a winch and then wire up both front and back to support it. My research shows that winches can draw over 400 amps at times and am really hoping the 12v system can handle it safely.

Thanks
jta

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[vandy1981]

There is a 12v battery that's accessible via a panel in the frunk. A particularly bold youtuber removed the panel on a development mule and got footage of the battery: .

I can't make out the model number but maybe you'll have better luck.

 

[SteffanG]

That is a 12v 35ah battery, no where near the size of a regular truck battery so not sure if it can put out 400+ amps as that would be over 10C which going that high is not good for batteries.

Oddly enough, that is the same size battery that runs my irrigation reel ? it is maybe 1/4 the size of an ICE truck battery

 

[MickeyAO]

There will be a DC2DC convert located somewhere in the vehicle that will supply 12V from the main pack. I'm not recommending it, but it is where I might start a search.

 

[GarageMahal]

Thanks for the video, very interesting that it doesn't have a full size battery up front.

I found this PDF which has some info on the 2021 hybrid electrical system:
https://www.fleet.ford.com/content/...owroom/resources/2021_F-150_ModifierGuide.pdf

This gives me some hope that we will be able to add a second battery (ideally full size) to handle larger draws when needed. Of course the high voltage battery will ultimately need to recharge that resulting in reduced range but that is a trade off I am willing to make.

Hopefully we will the learn how much the DC to DC converter can handle in the near future...

 

[vandy1981]

If all else fails you can put a second battery in the frunk and use a 120v charge controller to keep it topped off while driving.

 

[GarageMahal]

If all else fails you can put a second battery in the frunk and use a 120v charge controller to keep it topped off while driving.

That has certainly crossed my mind

 

[Pedaldude]

It's possible that the 'Pro' model will have a larger 12V battery since work trucks will often have extra lights and accessories. Though it's also just as likely that they won't put any additional effort into differentiating the Pro and it's just a way to be able to advertise a low starting MSRP.

Anyway, if the Pro does have a larger 12V accessory battery, then it's possible that it could be adapted for other models.

Another possibly is that if there's a market for it, the manufacturers might start making more efficient high voltage winch motors. Until then, it shouldn't be too involved adding some auxiliary batteries if they are able to be charged with the OEM converter. Or, it would be stupid but it wouldn't involve modifying the truck; you could use one of the 120V outlets with a charger and have it top the auxiliary batteries up and just hope you won't nee to use the winch too long. They also make 120V winches but they aren't rated very high and who knows if the outlet would even be able to power it. So far there are Powerboost owners tripping their breakers trying to start circular saws.

If Ford really wanted to make an impact with the Lightning, they'd have a PTO off the front motor. Might have to wait for the EV F-250 for that though!

There's also something like this:

 

[Lime Green]

I could swear I‘ve already seen from more than one source that the lightning has dual 12V batteries. One of which is immediately accessible in the frunk with terminal connectors for direct access/ jumping another vehicle. I may be mistaken or getting confused. Tesla’s Cybertruck has dual batteries of unknown size. I believe the Hummer EV does as well.

If Ford really wanted to make an impact with the Lightning, they'd have a PTO off the front motor. Might have to wait for the EV F-250 for that though!

That will almost certainly never happen, like 99.99999% never, no added value there. Why take power to feed a motor and then use that motor to turn a generator that in turn creates power? That’s the energy equivalent of you giving someone a $20 bill and them only giving you back 5 $1 bills just because you need a couple 1’s. I’m curious to know what the accessible power options are for the truck. There has to be something beyond the smaller 12V lithium batteries when there’s that bank of upfitter switches (standard on Lariat/ Platinum). PTO’s only made sense when you already had a turning crank from a combustion engine. You could leach some power off of that to generate a small amount of electricity separate from the 12V/ battery circuit. Not an applicable thing here.

A PTO system is essentially what the regenerative brakes are.

 

[Pedaldude]

...Why take power to feed a motor and then use that motor to turn a generator that in turn creates power? That’s the energy equivalent of you giving someone a $20 bill and them only giving you back 5 $1 bills just because you need a couple 1’s...PTO’s only made sense when you already had a turning crank from a combustion engine. You could leach some power off of that to generate a small amount of electricity separate from the 12V/ battery circuit. Not an applicable thing here.

A PTO system is essentially what the regenerative brakes are.

There are a few problems with your statement, regenerative braking is the motor acting as a generator to recharge the battery. PTO stands for power take-off and it's exactly what it sounds like, it's just a shaft sticking out of a transmission.

My hypothetical example above assumed that a mechanical winch would be used. While PTOs are used to run generators; they are also used to run hydraulics, pumps, augers, portable sawmills, mixers and just about anything that you can imagine.

Electrical drive efficiency is far better than 25%, that's the only reason why battery EVs are even possible, because the amount of energy stored in a full tank of gas is huge compared with even the largest batteries available. The efficiency you're describing is more descriptive of an internal combustion engine vehicle.

Even if running an electric motor with a generator driven by another electric motor sounds retarded, it's done all the time in the form of rotary phase converters and an optimized phase converter can approach 98% efficiency. So using quick math, if you are running a 90% efficient motor with a 90% efficient phase converter, you would get $16 and change for your $20 bill.

 

[Lime Green]

I know exactly what a PTO is. Yes, my relation to regenerative braking wasn’t the best analogy, I was just saying that the regenerative braking is generating power by using the motor to slow the vehicle.

I don’t necessarily disagree on the usefulness of a mechanical drive application. I don’t see an application of a PTO driven buy the drive motor. If you have equipment that you would like to adapt that is directly driven off the shaft rather than electrically, it would be far more efficient to add an appropriate motor dedicated to the job tapped right to the battery pack or primary power system rather than adapting to the drive motor. A separate motor would probably be necessary anyway you look at it so it can supply the appropriate RPM range and desired torque. there is no transmission on the drive motor, just a single gear box. We would need an additional gearbox piggy backing on the motor or a transmission to facilitate a PTO. Or rather it should be easier to supply an appropriate motor within the same space and more efficiently.

…So, not a PTO. But a specialized motor for running mechanically driven equipment that would normally use a PTO setup on a combustion engine vehicle. And I feel like I’m talking in circles.

 

[MickeyAO]

I could swear I‘ve already seen from more than one source that the lightning has dual 12V batteries. One of which is immediately accessible in the frunk with terminal connectors for direct access/ jumping another vehicle. I may be mistaken or getting confused. Tesla’s Cybertruck has dual batteries of unknown size. I believe the Hummer EV does as well.

It will have two 12V sources, but most likely only one 12V battery. The other source will be the DC to DC converter. Any vehicle with a certain level of autonomous driving will have redundant systems

We found out the hard way as we were pulling one of the computers off a Model 3 (the one behind the glove box, which I cannot remember the official name of right now). The 12V battery was disconnected when suddenly the cooling system started up and I had coolant all over the lab floor. Now we know to find and disconnect the DCDC converter from the traction battery.

 

[EaglesPDX]

they'd have a PTO off the front motor.

More efficient to just add an accessory motor.

 

[Pedaldude]

More efficient to just add an accessory motor.

Perhaps in the moment that the winch is being used but considering that it's dead weight most of the time, efficiency isn't the issue. Packaging is the problem, considering where the motor is on the Lightning, there's really no practical place for a PTO, not to mention that the motors are direct drive and the they always turn with the wheels and vice versa.

Still, it would be impressive if if it were implemented.

 

[EaglesPDX]

Perhaps in the moment that the winch is being used but considering that it's dead weight most of the time, efficiency isn't the issue.

As would the PTO, as is the winch when you aren't using it. Trying to build on a mechanical PTO to drive motor creates a lot of issues.

How big does a winch motor need to be?

With the big front trunk already having power to it, I'd bet some McGyver will quickly figure out how to use it for a winch and probably a lot of other stuff.

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