When is "enough" enough?

[sonofzell]

Okay, I'm trying hard to keep this legitimate question from devolving into a rant session. To that end, here's the most simplistic summary of my ownership experience with my 2021 F150 XLT:

I purchased my truck in February 2021 after a total loss collision in my 2018 XLT. Build date is 12/2020.

Issues with Sync4 system have been present and persistent since the day it left the lot. These include (but are not limited to): no retention of dash cluster settings, random resets of Sync settings/preferences, malfunctioning [native sync] navigation display, and inability to receive system updates (via OTA or USB dealer-installed).

To date, I have had the truck in for service on three separate occasions for these specific issues, and not one of them has been resolved. When picking up my truck from the dealer yesterday I was informed that a fourth visit will be required if/when the service techs receive the promised software fix from Ford. Additionally, I was informed by Ford Sync support just moments ago that my modem is now completely unresponsive. In addition to the issues mentioned above, I have now lost the ability to connect the vehicle to the Fordpass app and thus even more features (that were working without issue prior to having it serviced), including scheduled starts, securalert, remote monitoring, etc. After a lengthy troubleshooting session with Ford support reps I was informed that my only recourse is to... you guessed it - schedule yet another trip to the dealer service department.

I have no intention of starting a complaint session regarding my service experience, but it is a fact that I have spent a total of 26 days without my truck since purchasing it. I've also lost two full days of work in making arrangements for service (and probably the majority of a third day due to the collective "out early" and "in late" arrangements that were necessary to accomodate drop-offs, alternative transportaion, etc). I have also invested a significant amount of time, effort, and energy communicating and troubleshooting with Ford support directly. I honestly don't think that 20 cumulative hours is any exaggeration in that regard.

My point is this: my truck is now one year old, has over 13,000 miles, and has NEVER provided operability of the funtions mentioned above. While I freely admit that none of these issues affect the safety or general operability of the vehicle, they are all advertised features of the product that were promised and paid for. If I were to assume that the promised "fix" will really be released next month, AND that it will be able to be sucessfully installed, AND that it really resolves my issues (a giant assumption given my experience thus far), I will essentially be getting the product that I paid for "new" for the first time, but in "pre-owned" condition. Surely we can all agree that if the truck that actually delivered the features I purchased was a year old with 13k, I would have paid A HELL OF A LOT LESS for it than I paid for this new one.

With this in mind, and considering my complete lack of confidence in the reliability of my Sync system moving forward, I am asking honestly: is it unreasonable for me to consider pursuing a buyback/replacement or even investigating "lemon law" designation? I sincerly don't intend to be over-dramatic, but at what point does Ford's failure to deliver a vehicle as advertised become their problem, instead of my constant inconvenience and expense? At what point can Ford no longer justify my purchased vehicle that is explicitly and quantifyably inferior to identical trucks with identical options sold at an identical price that simply happened to have been built after they corrected their own mistake?

Again, I'm really not just venting here. I'm legitimately asking if:

• It would be reasonable/ethical to begin pursuing a vehicle return or other compensation for the failures of the vehicle I purchased
• I have any legal recourse to enforce Ford's accountability for their product not being delivered as advertised
• anyone has had any similar experiences with new vehicle purchases (Ford or otherwise)
• I'm just being a "Karen" and overreacting to what are essentially "minor" issues (although I do contest that my patience and cooperation for the past year earns me some credit in that regard...)

I know "lemon laws" and other buyer protection programs exist for a reason. I suppose I've been very fortunate that thus far, I've never needed to concern myself with them, but I'm also not eager to "learn my lesson" by getting taken advantage of with the purchase of what I consider to be a "premium" vehicle. I'm trying to leverage my empathy for Ford dealing with a number of factors outside of their control with my instinct to avoid having been "conned" into purchasing a vehicle that was NOT as advertised (and waiting too long to take any corrective action).

Thanks in advance for any thoughts or guidance, and apologies if any of this reads like the rant I am trying to avoid!

Sponsored

 

[sbi]

Okay, I'm trying hard to keep this legitimate question from devolving into a rant session. To that end, here's the most simplistic summary of my ownership experience with my 2021 F150 XLT:

I purchased my truck in February 2021 after a total loss collision in my 2018 XLT. Build date is 12/2020.

Issues with Sync4 system have been present and persistent since the day it left the lot. These include (but are not limited to): no retention of dash cluster settings, random resets of Sync settings/preferences, malfunctioning [native sync] navigation display, and inability to receive system updates (via OTA or USB dealer-installed).

To date, I have had the truck in for service on three separate occasions for these specific issues, and not one of them has been resolved. When picking up my truck from the dealer yesterday I was informed that a fourth visit will be required if/when the service techs receive the promised software fix from Ford. Additionally, I was informed by Ford Sync support just moments ago that my modem is now completely unresponsive. In addition to the issues mentioned above, I have now lost the ability to connect the vehicle to the Fordpass app and thus even more features (that were working without issue prior to having it serviced), including scheduled starts, securalert, remote monitoring, etc. After a lengthy troubleshooting session with Ford support reps I was informed that my only recourse is to... you guessed it - schedule yet another trip to the dealer service department.

I have no intention of starting a complaint session regarding my service experience, but it is a fact that I have spent a total of 26 days without my truck since purchasing it. I've also lost two full days of work in making arrangements for service (and probably the majority of a third day due to the collective "out early" and "in late" arrangements that were necessary to accomodate drop-offs, alternative transportaion, etc). I have also invested a significant amount of time, effort, and energy communicating and troubleshooting with Ford support directly. I honestly don't think that 20 cumulative hours is any exaggeration in that regard.

My point is this: my truck is now one year old, has over 13,000 miles, and has NEVER provided operability of the funtions mentioned above. While I freely admit that none of these issues affect the safety or general operability of the vehicle, they are all advertised features of the product that were promised and paid for. If I were to assume that the promised "fix" will really be released next month, AND that it will be able to be sucessfully installed, AND that it really resolves my issues (a giant assumption given my experience thus far), I will essentially be getting the product that I paid for "new" for the first time, but in "pre-owned" condition. Surely we can all agree that if the truck that actually delivered the features I purchased was a year old with 13k, I would have paid A HELL OF A LOT LESS for it than I paid for this new one.

With this in mind, and considering my complete lack of confidence in the reliability of my Sync system moving forward, I am asking honestly: is it unreasonable for me to consider pursuing a buyback/replacement or even investigating "lemon law" designation? I sincerly don't intend to be over-dramatic, but at what point does Ford's failure to deliver a vehicle as advertised become their problem, instead of my constant inconvenience and expense? At what point can Ford no longer justify my purchased vehicle that is explicitly and quantifyably inferior to identical trucks with identical options sold at an identical price that simply happened to have been built after they corrected their own mistake?

Again, I'm really not just venting here. I'm legitimately asking if:

• It would be reasonable/ethical to begin pursuing a vehicle return or other compensation for the failures of the vehicle I purchased
• I have any legal recourse to enforce Ford's accountability for their product not being delivered as advertised
• anyone has had any similar experiences with new vehicle purchases (Ford or otherwise)
• I'm just being a "Karen" and overreacting to what are essentially "minor" issues (although I do contest that my patience and cooperation for the past year earns me some credit in that regard...)

I know "lemon laws" and other buyer protection programs exist for a reason. I suppose I've been very fortunate that thus far, I've never needed to concern myself with them, but I'm also not eager to "learn my lesson" by getting taken advantage of with the purchase of what I consider to be a "premium" vehicle. I'm trying to leverage my empathy for Ford dealing with a number of factors outside of their control with my instinct to avoid having been "conned" into purchasing a vehicle that was NOT as advertised (and waiting too long to take any corrective action).

Thanks in advance for any thoughts or guidance, and apologies if any of this reads like the rant I am trying to avoid!

I am sorry to hear about the issues you have. I have some of my own and the hardest part is:
1. scheduling an appointment with a dealer
2. knowing beforehand that I would have to return because the first appointment would be to check the warranty issues and order parts (did you mention losing work days?!)

I think you certainly can and should pursue a Lemon replacement and any other legal action against Ford, I wish there was some kind of a group effort considering all the issues so many people have.

One thing that I think you should fix is getting read of the "ethical". If there is anything unethical in your and many others' situation is the way Ford QC these trucks and send them off the lot with malfunction systems and missing parts. F$%ck 'ethical' and it's time Ford starts take us seriously. We, the owners, are the ones who make them so successful.

Good luck and keep us posted. No reason to wait, IMO.

 

[Oxford_Powerboost]

Sorry to hear you’re dealing with all of that. Unfortunate that some of the earlier build trucks end up with all these APIM related issues. There is a thread somewhere around here by some extremely knowledgeable people that seem to have figured out how to “unbrick” the APIM, forcing updates and getting things up and running again using FDRS, a diagnostic software. See if you can find that and maybe try it, it seems to be working for a lot of people. The APIM is the most likely reason you’re having the sync glitches, update issue, and resetting gauges, so the process others have figured out may very well solve all your issues. Previously, people were getting new APIMs installed by dealers. They were on backorder and took a while, but did solve the issues, presumably because the new unit came with newer software. I have heard Ford has directed dealers to stop replacing APIMs, pending a software fix coming soon. I assume they figured out the same thing that those on the thread I referenced did, and are writing up a step by step TSB for the techs…

With that said, I don’t think it would be unethical to pursue a buy back at this point. I probably would consider it if I was in your shoes and the FDRS forced update didn’t work. Check lemon laws in your state though, there are certain stipulations sometimes to time, and the dealer has to agree on issues 3 times without being able to fix it. Also, if you’re financed through Ford, some people have been able to complain enough to their customer care team (respectfully, we all know yelling doesn’t get people anywhere, or at least it shouldn’t) that they decide to compensate with a couple of months of payments for the inconvenience of having your truck down. Worth a shot

 

[Buyer2021]

is it unreasonable for me to consider pursuing a buyback/replacement or even investigating "lemon law" designation?

IMO there's nothing unreasonable about "considering / investigting"

1. pursuit of customer satisfaction buyback
2. Lemon Law action

..... you're already doing that before you made this post.

I would suggest that part of the consideration / investigation for the latter (or using the latter to 'leverage' the former) might best include first getting an impartial (lawyer?) opinion as to whether or not the admittedly very aggravating SYNC problems rise to the level of 'substantially impairing the value, use or safety of the vehicle' (a common lemon law threshold test, including in PA).

The problems you describe might or might not meet that legal threshold, I honestly don't know (and I suspect most impassioned folks on this forum won't really know either), but I suspect that Ford will know. I do know that trying to use 'leverage' in a negotiation that is in fact very weak or without basis is usually an unsuccessful and often damaging negotiating tactic, undermining the overall strategy.

Again, I'm not suggesting the problems you describe are anything less than very frustrating and meaningful to you, just not sure if they meet the lemon law threshold as viewed by an impartial party who has experience with that 'legal test' in your jurisdiction. Just suggesting it might be useful for you to get a well-founded understanding of that as it applies to your specific case before proceeding with either approach. Your tactics and strategy for pursuing 'customer satisfaction' may best be very different if you know before engaging that the lemon-law option is likely not viable.

Please note my comments are not based on any experience with a vehicle problem such as this (never been there); they're based on many years of successfully negotiating other types of commercial disputes to resolution (BTDT a lot as a function of my professional responsibilities).

Good Luck!

 

[trojandawg3]

I had a 2020 with some reoccurring issues. What I ended up doing was working out a deal on a 2022 order/trade. They were willing to give me a pretty good deal to avoid the two scenarios you mention. Of course it will depend on the dealer, but may be worth asking...

 

[dhrandy]

@Ford Motor Company ??

 

[Jus Cruisin]

Easy solution..... Get some values from Carvana, Carmax and maybe local buyers in your area and broom it. I've done it before and if I stumble across a loaded solid black King Ranch 3.5l Ecoboost, I might the same with mine.

 

[sonofzell]

There is a thread somewhere around here by some extremely knowledgeable people that seem to have figured out how to “unbrick” the APIM, forcing updates and getting things up and running again using FDRS, a diagnostic software. See if you can find that and maybe try it, it seems to be working for a lot of people.

Sincere thanks for your thoughts and suggestions! I have tried most of the user-reported fixes (from myKey profiles to master Sync resets) with no luck. I've also seen the FDRS examples, but have not attempted to apply them myself due to my unwillingness to eat the expense of the license and interface as well as my acceptance that it's way beyond my technical competency!

The APIM is the most likely reason you’re having the sync glitches, update issue, and resetting gauges, so the process others have figured out may very well solve all your issues. Previously, people were getting new APIMs installed by dealers. They were on backorder and took a while, but did solve the issues, presumably because the new unit came with newer software.

So I was under the impression that my APIM has been replaced, although after looking at my recent service invoice I can't be certain. The tech did tell me verbally that a new APIM was installed, however, the invoice only indicates a "TCU" replacement. This could very well be a simple miscommunication (on my part or the dealer's), so I'm not implying any deception and again, I'm trying to exclude any rants about my service experience from this discussion. I know I've had the APIM "diagnosed", "reset" and at one point, "flashed" to no avail, but if it was indeed replaced, I do not have any paper record of it.

The only documented replacement I have a record of is the TCU. Incidentally, the Ford support rep suggested that this replacement may have been the catalyst for my modem becoming inoperable:

​

Kelly​

at 21:30, Jan 25:​

I apologize that this issue did not get fixed with your previous visit. But if you give the dealership reference number SSM 50271, they should be able to solve this issue. If the TCU, which is another word for the modem, was replaced, then this would line up exactly with reference number SSM 50271, which can occur with replaced modems.​

​

​

if you’re financed through Ford, some people have been able to complain enough to their customer care team (respectfully, we all know yelling doesn’t get people anywhere, or at least it shouldn’t) that they decide to compensate with a couple of months of payments for the inconvenience of having your truck down.

As fate would have it, I had paid off my previous truck just about a month before it was totalled. It certainly worked out in my favor when purchasing the '21, as I was able to use the settlement money and some additional cash to drive off with a title. In regard to compensation, however, owning the vehicle seems as though it may actually limit my options. My wife asked me a rather profound question this morning: "What exactly do you think they will offer you that you'd be satisfied with?" While this loosely translates to "When will I no longer have to hear you bitch about your truck", her point remains valid...

Up until the last month or so, "fixing all the off-the-lot issues at no cost" would have been my honest answer, but I feel as though I've gotten to the point at which that really doesn't seem adequate anymore. I hate the fact that I absolutely love my truck, and simultaneously completely regret purchasing it!

 

[3DogKnight]

Okay, I'm trying hard to keep this legitimate question from devolving into a rant session. To that end, here's the most simplistic summary of my ownership experience with my 2021 F150 XLT:

I purchased my truck in February 2021 after a total loss collision in my 2018 XLT. Build date is 12/2020.

Issues with Sync4 system have been present and persistent since the day it left the lot. These include (but are not limited to): no retention of dash cluster settings, random resets of Sync settings/preferences, malfunctioning [native sync] navigation display, and inability to receive system updates (via OTA or USB dealer-installed).

To date, I have had the truck in for service on three separate occasions for these specific issues, and not one of them has been resolved. When picking up my truck from the dealer yesterday I was informed that a fourth visit will be required if/when the service techs receive the promised software fix from Ford. Additionally, I was informed by Ford Sync support just moments ago that my modem is now completely unresponsive. In addition to the issues mentioned above, I have now lost the ability to connect the vehicle to the Fordpass app and thus even more features (that were working without issue prior to having it serviced), including scheduled starts, securalert, remote monitoring, etc. After a lengthy troubleshooting session with Ford support reps I was informed that my only recourse is to... you guessed it - schedule yet another trip to the dealer service department.

I have no intention of starting a complaint session regarding my service experience, but it is a fact that I have spent a total of 26 days without my truck since purchasing it. I've also lost two full days of work in making arrangements for service (and probably the majority of a third day due to the collective "out early" and "in late" arrangements that were necessary to accomodate drop-offs, alternative transportaion, etc). I have also invested a significant amount of time, effort, and energy communicating and troubleshooting with Ford support directly. I honestly don't think that 20 cumulative hours is any exaggeration in that regard.

My point is this: my truck is now one year old, has over 13,000 miles, and has NEVER provided operability of the funtions mentioned above. While I freely admit that none of these issues affect the safety or general operability of the vehicle, they are all advertised features of the product that were promised and paid for. If I were to assume that the promised "fix" will really be released next month, AND that it will be able to be sucessfully installed, AND that it really resolves my issues (a giant assumption given my experience thus far), I will essentially be getting the product that I paid for "new" for the first time, but in "pre-owned" condition. Surely we can all agree that if the truck that actually delivered the features I purchased was a year old with 13k, I would have paid A HELL OF A LOT LESS for it than I paid for this new one.

With this in mind, and considering my complete lack of confidence in the reliability of my Sync system moving forward, I am asking honestly: is it unreasonable for me to consider pursuing a buyback/replacement or even investigating "lemon law" designation? I sincerly don't intend to be over-dramatic, but at what point does Ford's failure to deliver a vehicle as advertised become their problem, instead of my constant inconvenience and expense? At what point can Ford no longer justify my purchased vehicle that is explicitly and quantifyably inferior to identical trucks with identical options sold at an identical price that simply happened to have been built after they corrected their own mistake?

Again, I'm really not just venting here. I'm legitimately asking if:

• It would be reasonable/ethical to begin pursuing a vehicle return or other compensation for the failures of the vehicle I purchased
• I have any legal recourse to enforce Ford's accountability for their product not being delivered as advertised
• anyone has had any similar experiences with new vehicle purchases (Ford or otherwise)
• I'm just being a "Karen" and overreacting to what are essentially "minor" issues (although I do contest that my patience and cooperation for the past year earns me some credit in that regard...)

I know "lemon laws" and other buyer protection programs exist for a reason. I suppose I've been very fortunate that thus far, I've never needed to concern myself with them, but I'm also not eager to "learn my lesson" by getting taken advantage of with the purchase of what I consider to be a "premium" vehicle. I'm trying to leverage my empathy for Ford dealing with a number of factors outside of their control with my instinct to avoid having been "conned" into purchasing a vehicle that was NOT as advertised (and waiting too long to take any corrective action).

Thanks in advance for any thoughts or guidance, and apologies if any of this reads like the rant I am trying to avoid!

I would look into the lemon law to see if it pertains to the problems you have specifically and use that info moving forward. Sorry to hear of your problems and I hope the outcome of this is positive.

 

[MikeYQM]

This was it for me today: after a service appointment failed to fix the freezing door latch issue, I spent an hour + in -15C idling the truck trying to get the door closed and finally had to strap it in place to drive back to the dealership.
@Ford Motor Company how safe is that?

 

[Thomasp99]

This was it for me today: after a service appointment failed to fix the freezing door latch issue, I spent an hour + in -15C idling the truck trying to get the door closed and finally had to strap it in place to drive back to the dealership.
@Ford Motor Company how safe is that?

Man, that is not right regardless of vehicle cost !

 

[MikeYQM]

Man, that is not right regardless of vehicle cost !

@Ford Motor Company seems to think it is…

 

[Thomasp99]

@Ford Motor Company seems to think it is…

I would call them - If the manager hasn't answered your question and you are in the United States, dial 800-392-3673. If you are hearing impaired, dial 800-232-5952. If you are in Canada, dial 800-565-3673.

 

[sonofzell]

Not much movement so far. I reached out to my dealers - both where it was purchased the (different) one where the services have been performed. I also spoke to a Ford support trep Tuesday (via chat) who opened a case and informed me someone would contact me the next morning to discuss in more detail.

- The service dealership eventually told me that the latest issue (no modem connectivity - SSM50271) is either caused by, or dependent on, my most recent repair (unable to install updates - SSM50383). As such, they claim there's no service they can provide until the new software is released, hopefully someone in February. While I don't have complete confidence in everything I've been told by this dealer, this certainly seems logical and plausible. Apparently, my only option is to deal with this additional issue and await Ford's promised "fix".

- The sales dealer has yet to return my calls from yesterday / today. If/when I'm able to speak to them, my intention is to delicately inform them of my plan to open a "buyback" dialog with Ford and, if necessary, contacting legal counsel in order to determine lemon law eligibility. I'm genuinely curious about how that will be received and what response I get.

- As of this moment, I'm still awaiting the "contact" by Ford customer service that I was expecting yesterday morning. I honestly have no idea what to expect, and little to no optimism that I will get anywhere, but if nothing else it's a documented start to this process.

If any of these avenues yields any useful insight I'll be sure to share it.

 

[MikeYQM]

I would call them - If the manager hasn't answered your question and you are in the United States, dial 800-392-3673. If you are hearing impaired, dial 800-232-5952. If you are in Canada, dial 800-565-3673.

Ford Customer “Support” is as useless as the bot that trolls around these forums. They’ll ask for your vin then send you to a dealer.

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