What grade fuel for PowerBoost?

[AutonomousHybridF150]

The engine constantly and in real-time advances to the threshold of detonation, which is the most efficient way to run the engine. So why would it take a tank or two to realize the benefits? It should happen immediately when higher octane fuel is pumped into the engine.

Because you’ve never seen what a little bad gas does to an engine. Tune an EB engine to the MAX and let a little miscalculation occur because of a mix a fuels, and boom, new motor.

Again, Ford tunes are conservative to say the least, and they don’t push any envelopes close to a Safe Max HP Tune.

If they retuned for octane instantly, you should look into fluid dynamics and see how an instant change could be an issue with two mixed liquids, and you have your answer.

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[Lippy]

Google adiabatic efficiency numbers for Boosted Applications and you will see that they run 60% vs 50% on NA motors.

This is the rules of boost, and NO boosted engine runs anywhere near 13.8 under heavy load. Last time I checked they were still tuning at 11.5 which is pig rich. When a boosted engine reaches 13.8, that’s where holy pistons are made my friend.

im telling you I’ve been doing this for a long time, and while my username may be new, I’ve been in this scene since my 99 GT was the fastest thing on the road. And I’ve done all the work from day 1 on all my vehicles.

Trust me. If you told me tuned friends you ran premium in a non tuned vehicle, they would say what for?

You very well may be right. I was talking about coarse rules of thumb for NA engines. And I agree with your statement about using premium fuel.

 

[huhner5]

Good discussion guys.... I enjoy reading civilized debates and learning some things in the process...

I for one, cannot wait for custom tunes to become available for the 21s.. I ran an E30 tune on my 15' 3.5 Ecoboost for 100k miles and made alot of mustang and Camaro owners really mad

 

[scrming]

Good discussion guys.... I enjoy reading civilized debates and learning some things in the process...

I for one, cannot wait for custom tunes to become available for the 21s.. I ran an E30 tune on my 15' 3.5 Ecoboost for 100k miles and made alot of mustang and Camaro owners really mad

think it’s going to be a very long time (if ever) before we see any aftermarket tunes. Some big hurdles.

our 2011 EB Flex was an absolute sleeper! I mean it literally surprised the sh*t out of everyone! So many stories from the track.

https://www.fordmuscle.com/features...-flex-might-be-out-to-embarrass-you-on-track/

 

[Snakebitten]

The HO motor is remarkably the same internally as the Non-HO. The only significant recognizable difference is that the HO has a lower compression ratio (10:1 VS 10.5:1?)and far better under-piston oiling and a different ring pack. But as stated previously, Ford tweaks the tune juuuuust enough to put out more power. And they openly publish that the SAE power rating was arrived at with 93 octane.

Any tuner who has spent a lot of time working with the AMAZING torque based software on the 3.5 Ecoboost will tell you that Ford left an amazing amount of low hanging safe fruit on the table. And that applies to the HO and the non HO. Same software with minor table value differences. Again, hardware wise they are way closer to the same internally than the mystique of "Raptor HO" implies.

Don't get me wrong because apples to Apples, the Raptor motor can be tuned to exceed the basic Ecoboost because it can theoretically take more timing/boost with the lower compression ratio. It's actually very clever how they approached their aim.

By the way, nothing I say should be construed as I am an Ecoboost know it all, but rather perhaps one of the foremost 3.5 Ecoboost motor builders in the world (not my opinion but the folks who even Ford goes to for expertise uses him as the motor builder) is a dear personal friend. He has been eating sleeping and drinking nothing but this platform from the beginning of the 2011 rollout.

And my disclaimer is that if he was to read anything that I have typed here he would probably laugh and tell me "you got close. That's kinda the right way to put it", And then immediately go over my head describing where I'm not telling the whole story.

 

[scrming]

The HO motor is remarkably the same internally as the Non-HO. The only significant recognizable difference is that the HO has a lower compression ratio (10:1 VS 10.5:1?)and far better under-piston oiling and a different ring pack. But as stated previously, Ford tweaks the tune juuuuust enough to put out more power. And they openly publish that the SAE power rating was arrived at with 93 octane.

Any tuner who has spent a lot of time working with the AMAZING torque based software on the 3.5 Ecoboost will tell you that Ford left an amazing amount of low hanging safe fruit on the table. And that applies to the HO and the non HO. Same software with minor table value differences. Again, hardware wise they are way closer to the same internally than the mystique of "Raptor HO" implies.

Don't get me wrong because apples to Apples, the Raptor motor can be tuned to exceed the basic Ecoboost because it can theoretically take more timing/boost with the lower compression ratio. It's actually very clever how they approached their aim.

By the way, nothing I say should be construed as I am an Ecoboost know it all, but rather perhaps one of the foremost 3.5 Ecoboost motor builders in the world (not my opinion but the folks who even Ford goes to for expertise uses him as the motor builder) is a dear personal friend. He has been eating sleeping and drinking nothing but this platform from the beginning of the 2011 rollout.

And my disclaimer is that if he was to read anything that I have typed here he would probably laugh and tell me "you got close. That's kinda the right way to put it", And then immediately go over my head describing where I'm not telling the whole story.

I was running my 2011 EB Flex at Milan Dragway (not to far from Detroit). Ran into a guy who had worked on the prototype EB Flex. Was impressed with mine but went on to say they had cranked their prototype up to around 700 HP with just a calibration. Said it was crazy fun until it “started spitting transmission parts out”

 

[F-150 Prius]

think it’s going to be a very long time (if ever) before we see any aftermarket tunes. Some big hurdles.

our 2011 EB Flex was an absolute sleeper! I mean it literally surprised the sh*t out of everyone! So many stories from the track.

https://www.fordmuscle.com/features...-flex-might-be-out-to-embarrass-you-on-track/

I hope you're wrong! : )
I've no doubt Ford "positioned" this first model of PowerBoost to be not too great … it would end the sales of the diesel (already cancelled) and "cannibalize" sales from every other engine in the F-150.

2021 F-150 Hybrid: 7.5kW motor … 1.5kWh battery

What would the F-150 be like as a plug-in hybrid with a 75kW motor and 13.6 kWh battery … ?

Imagine if Ford offered a PHEV model of the F-150 … that for some owners would mean it uses zero gas per working day? … still towing 12K+ … with EPA 40 mpg or 50 or 60 mpge unladen … ?

I wonder if a bright team of people in the after-market won't get into it and order from the Lincoln parts bin to power up the F-150 Prius to be a beast.

The Lincoln Aviator – that's a 75kW with a 13.6 kWh battery and a smaller V6 ecoboost delivering 494 hp and 630 lb-ft of torque – throws the 5600lb Aviator 0-60 mph in 5.5 seconds … the lightest F-150 Hybrid is under 4500lbs and already similar 5.3 seconds 0-60 … imagine adding the power and torque of a "real" hybrid drive … imagine going not a few seconds or a few miles under Electric, but half an hour or 21 miles … (my commute is 18 miles … I could potentially drive to work, charge during the day and drive home without stirring the "burn stuff" donk from its slumber.)

 

[AutonomousHybridF150]

I hope you're wrong! : )
I've no doubt Ford "positioned" this first model of PowerBoost to be not too great … it would end the sales of the diesel (already cancelled) and "cannibalize" sales from every other engine in the F-150.

2021 F-150 Hybrid: 7.5kW motor … 1.5kWh battery

What would the F-150 be like as a plug-in hybrid with a 75kW motor and 13.6 kWh battery … ?

Imagine if Ford offered a PHEV model of the F-150 … that for some owners would mean it uses zero gas per working day? … still towing 12K+ … with EPA 40 mpg or 50 or 60 mpge unladen … ?

I wonder if a bright team of people in the after-market won't get into it and order from the Lincoln parts bin to power up the F-150 Prius to be a beast.

The Lincoln Aviator – that's a 75kW with a 13.6 kWh battery and a smaller V6 ecoboost delivering 494 hp and 630 lb-ft of torque – throws the 5600lb Aviator 0-60 mph in 5.5 seconds … the lightest F-150 Hybrid is under 4500lbs and already similar 5.3 seconds 0-60 … imagine adding the power and torque of a "real" hybrid drive … imagine going not a few seconds or a few miles under Electric, but half an hour or 21 miles … (my commute is 18 miles … I could potentially drive to work, charge during the day and drive home without stirring the "burn stuff" donk from its slumber.)

For this reason I plan to keep the PB and make mods to it after the warranty is up

I love the thought of aftermarket battery packs that are double or triple the OEM capacity.

I love the thought that someone is going to swap an aviator 10 speed and aftermarket re-calibrated hybrid inverter in the F-150 to give it that extra 25KW on demand.

The electric performance options are almost endless. And to think, electric mods aren’t going to kill your MPG like cams and other ECO robbing parts

 

[F-150 Prius]

For this reason I plan to keep the PB and make mods to it after the warranty is up

I love the thought of aftermarket battery packs that are double or triple the OEM capacity.

I love the thought that someone is going to swap an aviator 10 speed and aftermarket re-calibrated hybrid inverter in the F-150 to give it that extra 25KW on demand.

The electric performance options are almost endless. And to think, electric mods aren’t going to kill your MPG like cams and other ECO robbing parts

The Aviator is 75kW, the F-150 Prius is 7.5kW … that's basically 70kW and a lot of extra torque across the rev range. That would take a lot more than cams! : )
I doubt the Aviator trans would take the F-150 workload, I'd like to imagine some very optimistic parts bin compatibility where the main difference is probably cooling the (much) larger motor with additional plumbing from the Aviator.
I think the first/easy step would be to buy the F-150 1.5kWh battery as a spare part and wire it in parallel with the existing battery and see if the system notices the extra capacity or just charges it and uses it.
I was watching autolinetv yesterday when they reported EV battery prices are falling quicker than predicted and Ford will be under $100 per kWh cost to them … I'm guessing that 1.5 kWh battery as a spare part ... $1000-2000 …

 

[kenpitt]

Getting close to an empty tank on the regular the dealer put in. I’m going to try premium for the next fill up as a comparison. I don’t drive a ton, getting close to a month with the truck and still on my first tank. So 20 cents more per gallon, filling up the entire tank is $6. I spend more on beer, if the premium is a fraction better for performance or MPG then I’ll cut out an IPA a month and it’s a wash.

91 octane is 60 cents more per gallon where i live.

 

[Snakebitten]

93 is currently about 3.10 or 3.15
I ain't happy about it, but my Flat6, Mazdarati, and Ecoboost ain't getting nothing but it.

I know I know. I'm just a stubborn Ole goat. But I drive everything hard when I feel like it and it makes me feel better.

The Mazdarati is currently tuned for 93, so it's necessary. The Porsche is basically an analog normally aspirated motor that is "recommended" to run 91.

The Ecoboost is the class genius in the barn and says "I'll run on whatever you feed me", but I KNOW what you feed me. So I want it to think I care. Lol

 

[pkinneb]

I have a hard time even finding 93 octane for my boosted Miata usually end up with 91. Haven't decided what I'll run in the PB yet but since I work from home so miles are minimal it will probably be premium.

 

[Snakebitten]

Yea, when I travel out of state I'm reminded that I live in the land of 93.

But then we are sea level too. Isn't there some kind of chemistry equation that reveals 91 in the mountains is the same as 93 at the beach?

 

[Jus Cruisin]

I'm still running regular without any issues. It's a truck and Ford hasn't produced a street performance truck since the 90's as far as I'm concerned. I guess 93 helps "performance" but it's still a slug as far as I'm concerned so why bother throwing money away just to drive around. The only time I would use 93 would be towing my boat more than a few miles. I ran 93 in my 2016 F150 King Ranch 3.5l Ecoboost when towing my enclosed car trailer from Florida to Michigan and back. But for normal driving 87 is all this truck will see. To me, a 5 something second 0-60 is a yawner.

 

[Whiskey]

Octane Rating = Anti-preignition

Anti-preignition means the fuel has compounds that prevent it from exploding as easily.

When fuel doesn’t explode as easily, technically you get less power. Unless the computer re-calibrates the timing curve drastically, which Ford does not do. This is why you must get an actual recalibrated tune for the REAL power gains (30-50HP extra) and also fill with premium. Similar octane rating can be achieved using 5 gallons of E85 and then putting 87 regular grade to finish filling the tank.

Pure E85 should get less MPG than pure gasoline because it includes 15% ethanol, which means that the mixture must run slightly richer to be the optimal ratio needed for combustion.

If the Powerboost runs 87 without significant knock retard occurring, then running 90 or 93 octane without a re-tune is going to be a waste of money.

Fun Fact: You need to run about a half to full tank of 93 octane through the engine before you are going to get the possible extra timing to make additional power.

Take it from someone that has driven tuned vehicles that require 93 octane or else they grenade from detonation, if you are filling up your F-150 with premium 93 octane, you are paying for extra anti-knock compound which is not being utilized enough to justify the extra .50 - 1.00 per gallon that it costs.

Premium does not mean the fuel is better or cleaner. It does not mean it explodes better and magically gives the engine more power.

Believe it or not, your premium fuel has a slightly more difficult time igniting than 87 does. Higher octane allows higher cylinder pressures and temperatures, without the fuel exploding before the piston reaches top dead center (before spark occurs) so it actually makes the fuel less explosive. This is the reason for larger gapped plugs and higher voltage coils on very high performance engines as they are running 104 octane or better, and require a hotter spark and bigger spark to keep ignition going.

There is absolutely NO reason to put more than 87 in any NON-tuned 2021 Model F-150 except the HO Raptor motor. The Raptor motor likely utilizes higher boost pressures and more advanced ignition timing curve, thus the requirement for premium fuel.

If you engine wasn’t tuned for 93 or built for 93 with high compression pistons or higher than factory boost levels, then you don’t need premium and you are throwing money away. Literally, just tossing 20 bucks away each fill up.

Pure 100% gasoline 87 octane should get you the best economy.

Pure Gasoline 93 octane should be reserved for engines that require it due to mechanical or calibration reasons.

Any Ethanol mixed gasoline will get less MPG because the mixture must be richer to achieve the same power levels (slightly less actually). E85 has 30% less heat energy, so it’s just less explosive than gas.

ADDING 5 Gallons of E-85 to a tank of 87 Octane pure gasoline, will. I’ve you roughly 93 Octane for much cheaper.

E-85 octane rating is 100-104 octane rating, which is considerably higher than any pump gasoline.

Running high octane fuel is a waste in a non-tuned F-150. I wouldn’t run higher than mid grade when towing, and would never run 93 unless I was going to the race track.

Finally…someone that understands octane and the effects thereof, good explanation. You’d be surprised as to the folks I come across that think the higher the octane the more power they gain (without adjusting the tune). Octane puts the fire out folks ?

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