What grade fuel for PowerBoost?

[Aron]

29% higher fuel cost to get 3.5% better mpg & range + 10% better acceleration isn't a value proposition for me either.

But then I remember how much I've spent to gain power on various engines in the past and it seems like a bargain.

Interestingly enough, as fuel prices increase, the percent extra you pay for Super is reduced making the value better. I mean if gas was, God forbid, $10/ gallon, another .90 cents is only a 9% penalty getting close to a wash on the improved economy.

Further, it seems like many gas stations reduce the price difference between the grades as overall fuel prices increase. When regular gas is $2.50 per gallon (remember when), premium was often $0.90 (or more) higher per gallon. When gas is $4.00 per gallon, premium seems like it's only $0.30 or $0.40 of a surcharge.

And then you get weirdness like this: Strange fuel pricing at Sheetz | F150gen14.com -- 2021+ Ford F-150, Lightning EV, Raptor Forum (14th Gen) | Owners, News, Discussions In those rare situations, it's hard to justify doing anything other than premium.

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[Suns_PSD]

I ran a few different "cocktails" on the Powerboost with the intended criteria to save some $'s at the pump while mixing E85 with 87, 89

It was when fuel prices were at there highest.

I wasn't willing to save money at the expense of performance, so the experiment was to subsidize the low octane of cheaper fuel with a mix of E85. The E85 pump I was using was ~E65

Anyways, to summarize, the Powerboost is a 30 gallon tank and I could get away with 5 gallons of E85 with 25 gallons of E10 and still be within the factory calibrations ability to manage stoic and everything ran nicely.

Mixing with 87 wasn't quite capable of holding OAR at max. So the pcm definitely dropped down to one or two rungs in the timing tables.
With 89, 4-5 gallons of E-65ish maxed out OAR and was just as well performing as 93. But the cost savings combined with ~3-5% less fuel mileage pretty much made it a wash.

Still, it was interesting and I enjoyed the exercise. These are amazing trucks. Ford's Ecoboost engine management is incredibly sophisticated.

It seems you've been tracking this stuff so hoping you could answer a few more questions for me?

1) What is OAR? Something related to timing retard or something?
2) Did you track the mpg difference between RUG/ Midgrade/ Super?
3) Did you track the % OAR difference between the 3 fuel grades? Basically, my question here is, can you get say 70% of the economy/ timing gain running mid-grade at half the cost increase of premium (for example)?
4) Do you experience the same % improvements during Summer as you do Winter?
5) Do you get any response or timing differences at throttle positions related to hypermiling, or are the timing differences only realized under heavy loads? After years of tracking cars/ motorcycles I've turned into my Grandmother (RIP Meme!) and drive for economy these days.

I don't have my Powerboost yet. My '18 Denali diesel blew a motor last week and I can't be without a ride so I have bought one sight unseen and it's on a transport truck, as we type. I only drove one used Powerboost locally and frankly, it wasn't impressive as it felt jerky and confused a bit, like it had a really tall gear ratio or something (i.e. 3.23 or something). Was wondering if the poor response was a result of low grade fuel or is this typical?

I just checked the gas station next to my office and see that premium is only 18% more than regular. That's what I'd consider reasonable. That said I don't want to waste money. Was thinking maybe run the mid-grade (only a 9% upcharge) during Winters and then switching to premium during our hot Summers. Where is the bang for the buck fellow Texan?

Thanks

 

[Snakebitten]

The Powerboost is 3.73 gear ratio.
The jerkyness is most likely the clumsiness of a new low mileage 10r80 MHT (Powerboost version of the 10r80)

Several things can influence the shifting to improve considerably.

First and foremost is it actually "wearing in" mechanically.
Next is the adaptive tables (so called learning) being populated with appropriate values.
There's also been about 4 pcm updates since the Job1 2021 Powerboost and in my opinion they are worthy of chasing down if you have an early build. Potential for great improvements in driveability.

And finally, and perhaps controversial, you learn how to drive it in a way that brings harmony to the whole ensemble of components in play. Or put another way, it's NOT about driving it easy or hard, but rather driving it smoothly. Especially from a dead stop.

My current truck is a 2022 Powerboost with just short of 12,000 miles. And although I resent STRONGLY that Ford has me locked to the shift strategy they label as "Normal", I rarely experience the skip-shift over 2nd gear. (I despise the skip shift when I experience the truck falling on its face briefly)
I'm certain that both my technique AND one of the pcm updates is what lends the capability to use 2nd gear now. It doesn't require aggressive launches, but rather a steady smooooth roll-in of increasing tip-in/throttle. It's glorious compared to that clunky experience that you described. And I KNOW that experience myself. Very unrefined and off putting.

OAR = Octane Adjust Ratio

What it really is, as I understand it, is an indication of which timing table the pcm is currently using for managing the timing advance.

There are multiple tables. Think of them as sheets in a spreadsheet. The most aggressive sheet has timing values for various rpms/load factors/intake temps/etc.
If the OAR value is -1, then you know that the pcm is currently using the most aggressive timing table and the knock sensors aren't complaining about it.

If the knock sensors object loudly, (a positive value of 6) it won't take but a few seconds for the OAR to drop to something like -.93 or say -.87

That indicates that the pcm has switched to a completely different timing sheet with less aggressive timing advance.

So on and so on.

My experiment with various cocktails of E85 in small enough doses to keep the tank at or below E20 was entirely to see if I could keep OAR at -1 on less octane than 93.
The theory being that the Twin Turbo 3.5 Ecoboost engine management system is so sophisticated that it can adjust timing based on the advantages that additional ethanol offers in the combustion chamber.

So if I'm traveling to an area of the country that doesn't have 93 available, can I throw in a few gallons (3-5) at a fill up and still have power from timing advance, thus less need to meet the torque request with boost.

A Powerboost is fascinating to me because it has 3 sources to draw on to meet the torque request.
RPM with timing (Normally Aspirated)
Boost (forced induction)
Electric (almost 100ftlbs if SOC supports it)

It's quite the dance!
And compared to my previous Ecoboost F150's, it's amazing just how quickly you can hustle this truck down the road at far less Boost than the non Powerboost.
The PCM logic Ford has in this thing appears to favor timing and electric first, THEN boost.
They didn't have to set it up that way, but they appear to have.

Truck is just amazing from a nerd point of view.

This old man feels like he's getting to experience what wasn't that long ago science fiction. Truly enjoying it just before this dinosaur goes extinct.

 

[TheGoatman]

I just threw in 5ga of e85. It tests to e60-e65. Should net me to high teens

@Snakebitten did you see a noticeable difference? I think I see a difference on how the boost comes in.

 

[Snakebitten]

I just threw in 5ga of e85. It tests to e60-e65. Should net me to high teens

@Snakebitten did you see a noticeable difference? I think I see a difference on how the boost comes in.

My fuel "cocktails" weren't really about me comparing WOT or maximum performance.
However, since I WAS emphasizing my desire to keep +KR at a minimum and timing advance at a maximum, it only makes sense that those same parameters would be beneficial during boost.

Having said that, it's just amazing what 65Amps of 300Volt current PLUS 18psi of forced induction can do to propel a 6000# luxury yacht shaped like a brick down down the road.

According to every measurement available, those hooligan moments leverage additional anti-knock absolutely.

 

[TheGoatman]

My fuel "cocktails" weren't really about me comparing WOT or maximum performance.
However, since I WAS emphasizing my desire to keep +KR at a minimum and timing advance at a maximum, it only makes sense that those same parameters would be beneficial during boost.

Having said that, it's just amazing what 65Amps of 300Volt current PLUS 18psi of forced induction can do to propel a 6000# luxury yacht shaped like a brick down down the road.

According to every measurement available, those hooligan moments leverage additional anti-knock absolutely.

Sounds good. Yeah I should’ve been more clear. The instance where I may be noticing is 10th gear highway. Giving a bit of gas for a hill or pass with out a downshift. It seems to go into boost sooner, even if it’s just a lb or two.

I got the pcm update recently too so that might be doing it. That was the exact scenario where I had the shudder on the 21

 

[Snakebitten]

If I'm running with low load (not towing) I'm not as concerned with watching/avoiding boost in overdrive, but even with the Powerboost 373 final ratio at 80mph (Texas Interstate) it's cruising at an RPM that might invite some +KR.

But yea, Ford has it programmed to use boost rather than downshift. Not a big deal at 1-3 lbs, in my opinion, but if it was in New Mexico with a slow steady climb to Colorado, it might be long sustained 4-6lbs and you'll see coolant temps start to climb.

The previous generation (2017-2020) 3.5 Ecoboost already was running at ~216F at now load, so you might see 220-230F with that sustained boost. So I learned to lockout a ratio or 2 and use rpms rather than boost. Engine coolant temps would immediately drop back to normal.

When towing in the same circumstances you had to use the same strategy (or slow down) or you could quickly find the pcm derate the motor to protect it.

Amazing vehicles. Incredible engine management. If you can't tell, I'm a big fan of the 3.5 Ecoboost. Lol
Throw in that little 1.5KW battery and a electric assist motor? Well I'm just hopelessly enamored. I can't believe they went through the trouble.

 

[snyce1]

Are you using Regular or Premium? I seem to remember Ford recommends Premium but says you can run on Regular.

I use 87 . RUNS FINE . IF I USE 91 MIGHT GET A LITTLE MORE RANGE. NOT WORTH IT

 

[Android]

Are you using Regular or Premium? I seem to remember Ford recommends Premium but says you can run on Regular.

I have been using 87 grade and I have been getting the estimated mpg so I am sticking with that for now

 

[Suns_PSD]

How are you guys tracking OAR and other parameters that might reflect octane related retard?

I have the Torque app that ties in to my OBD port (using BT) and the closest I've been able to locate is a timing advance graph, which if I could read it while on the pedal should be the same thing.

 

[Snakebitten]

It's a user defined pid in both odblink app and Torque Pro.

Here's a screenshot of what you have to enter into the "user defined pid" values, paying very close attention to the marked in red slashes

 

[Suns_PSD]

Snakebitten, does this look right to you as mine looks a bit different than yours?

Thx

 

[Snakebitten]

That green check mark is encouraging. But I imagine that it is going to require the address (pid number 03E8) entered somewhere.

Hex header?

 

[Suns_PSD]

Regular Unleaded mpg for me over a tank came to 21.6 mpg at an average speed of 34 mph.
There was a middle tank that was 2/3 93 Octane and 1/3 87 Octane, and I assume the computer was still adjusting and it came to 22.1 mpg
Premium fuel mpg for me over a tank came to 22.8 mpg at an average speed of 38 mph. This tank actually started off in the teens after 150 miles just because of driving conditions. It was not a case of resetting the counter on a long road trip or anything to artificially boost the reading.

All of these are what I'd consider my normal driving, not hypermiling but I do enjoy seeing the mpg click upwards.

Maybe some of that mpg bump was from the slightly higher average speed? But if so, I don't think that represented much of it. I'll also add that I recall that the very first tank (that's the top run) I was trying for economy, but laziness and fun has taken over and I'm definitely accelerating harder now and more often.

So from RUG to Premium netted me 5% better mpg at an increased cost of 25% (TX fuel costs currently), so clearly not a good value in terms of cost per mile. That said I feel the engine runs smoother and the acceleration bump seems noticeable to me, even if I only really use the hard acceleration 2-3x per day.

Generally mpg needs to be calculated over a few tanks to be certain, however I have a Livernois programmer arriving today, AT tires arriving in 2 weeks, and an airbox in about 5 weeks. So this will have to do for my stock 4x4 truck on Super. (bought used about 3 weeks aga)

I'll use one full tank of fuel on the Livernois tuner to play with it, let the trans adjust, then I'll just go to my normal driving and report back. Personally I don't expect any further improvement, but I hope to be proven wrong.

My personal goal is simply to have this truck on AT tires (not leveled or lifted), maintain the amazing comfort and low noise level as best as possible, and still be able to consistently be at 20mpg or greater all while I have a 500 hp truck. That would actually be amazing. I think those AT tires are going to cost me 2 mpg all on their own.

 

[Tank]

I only need the extra HP for about 13 seconds or so! ?. Need to see if the PowerBoost can get as fast as our old Flex! LOL

I have Livernois tuning on my 2021 Powerboost..so far I have ran a 12.70sec 1/4 mile.

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