Uh, Oh... looks like the EV tax credits are hitting an obstacle

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EaglesPDX

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Ev's are not sitting on car lots covered in dust
They are not being produced or purchased in large enough volume to fix the problem for which they are designed.

Increasing demand and production. Demand is increased by lowering price via subsidy, proven method. Production is increased by regulatory requirement.

Subsidies overcome the price differential issue and increase volume of EV sales.
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FordLightning

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Actually they do as it cuts US oil use by 30%, eliminating need for oil imports and the strategic threat that oil imports represent to US as we see from $17t in oil war debt to pay for 40 years US troops in Middle East on a war footing.

No strategic need for US to be involved in occupying Middle East oil fields.

US could also stop fracking which is destroying the US fresh water aquifers.
THe US was a net producer of oil/gas just a year ago….poor decisions by politicians have forced us to use barges to bring oil to us from other parts of the world. Not good for the environment or national security. Gas & Natural gas prices compared to last year confirm this atrocity.
 

EaglesPDX

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THe US was a net producer of oil/gas just a year ago
Net exporter is what you mean. Yes we are fractionally and very recently but due to recession and fracking, neither of which are sustainable. Absent fracking, US would be importing 20% with the Covid-19 recession cutting oil imports another 10%.

Economy comes back and fracking fails science tests on aquifer destruction, US will be back to the $300B a year in oil imports and that is what Pentagon plans for as Middle East oil is the No. 2 Strategic Threat to US for Pentagon planning, second only to nuke threat.

US, world, needs to shut down oil and coal use, it's why we subsidize EV's.
 

TF1000

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Yes EVs will sell now without tax incentives only because so few are being built and there are enough enthusiasts/earlier adopters. To sell to the masses they will have to be priced the same or cheaper than ICE vehicles.
 

astricklin

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They are not being produced or purchased in large enough volume to fix the problem for which they are designed.

Increasing demand and production. Demand is increased by lowering price via subsidy, proven method. Production is increased by regulatory requirement.

Subsidies overcome the price differential issue and increase volume of EV sales.
I think the point was demand is already well outstripping supply so why are taxpayers subsidizing increased demand?
 

EaglesPDX

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But an F150 Lightning Pro is priced competitively with ICE equivalent.
I believe Ford has all the F150EV models priced equivalent with their ICE twins.

Thank Ford’s profit ratio on F150’s for that as EV’s will cost more to build for probably the next 10 years.

Even at price equivalency, the EV’s need an incentive to sell vs. ICE version.
 
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EaglesPDX

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I think the point was demand is already well outstripping supply so why are taxpayers subsidizing increased demand?
Because supply and demand are not strong enough to get the job done. We need more incentive to speed up the process or our goose is cooked.
 

TF1000

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"But an F150 Lightning Pro is priced competitively with ICE equivalent.
That basically how this forum exists."

Yes competitive but still more. MSRP for 2022 Ford ICE F-150 has a base price of $29,640 to over $80,000. The 2022 SuperCrew Hybrid starts at $37,350. Like I said the masses will buy ICE until EVs are the same or cheaper.
 

Snakebitten

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"But an F150 Lightning Pro is priced competitively with ICE equivalent.
That basically how this forum exists."

Yes competitive but still more. MSRP for 2022 Ford ICE F-150 has a base price of $29,640 to over $80,000. The 2022 SuperCrew Hybrid starts at $37,350. Like I said the masses will buy ICE until EVs are the same or cheaper.
A base F150 ICE is nowhere near Apple/Apple to a Base Lightning.

Or put another way, The Lightning Pro at 40K is far closer to being comparable to a 40K Ice F150, rather than the "starting point" for the ICE F150.

The starting point for the ICE F150 is a lot less truck than the starting point of the Lightning.
 

Pilot2022

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A base F150 ICE is nowhere near Apple/Apple to a Base Lightning.

Or put another way, The Lightning Pro at 40K is far closer to being comparable to a 40K Ice F150, rather than the "starting point" for the ICE F150.

The starting point for the ICE F150 is a lot less truck than the starting point of the Lightning.
Agree... to make it concrete...what are the differentiators besides 4 door, 4 wd, larger screen?
Arent' a lot of creature comforts the same? Don't really care for them and can go aftermarket if I really want prostate massager....
 

FordLightning

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Net exporter is what you mean. Yes we are fractionally and very recently but due to recession and fracking, neither of which are sustainable. Absent fracking, US would be importing 20% with the Covid-19 recession cutting oil imports another 10%.

Economy comes back and fracking fails science tests on aquifer destruction, US will be back to the $300B a year in oil imports and that is what Pentagon plans for as Middle East oil is the No. 2 Strategic Threat to US for Pentagon planning, second only to nuke threat.

US, world, needs to shut down oil and coal use, it's why we subsidize EV's.
I agree. I wish Biden, Kamala, Pelosi, and Kerry would show leadership and stop using fossil fuel today. I couldn’t believe it when I saw Biden wasting jet fuel to go to Ireland recently. I was even more appalled that Kamala chose to fly to Europe vs. taking an e-bike to visit & inspect our own border security.

Hopefully we can unite on these important and shared goals.
 

Brian Head Yankee

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Because supply and demand are not strong enough to get the job done. We need more incentive to speed up the process or our goose is cooked.
We have no idea what you are talking about

US, world, needs to shut down oil and coal use, it's why we subsidize EV's.
Wait, you have no idea what you are talking about!
 

MikePinkston

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My thoughts on EV credits are this. I think the product should stand on its own. If it's good enough it will sell without government handouts.

However, if the government feels they need to help push things along, then they should effect change that will actually make a difference. Hard product price caps. Nothing over, say, 40k. And make it like cash-for-clunkers. You have to turn a gas burning vehicle in to qualify, and that vehicle has to be destroyed.

The people buying electric cars right now can afford them without government assistance. Giving somebody free government cheese that is buying an $80k toy isn't effecting change. You need to get the older, less efficient, vehicles off the road. The current system, and the proposed one, doesn't do that.
The difference now is that the planet is about to start cooking in it's own juices and we have to do something quick or hand our grandkids a world without much joy in it. We need an incentive to change our collective behavior.
IMHO
 
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