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Angrybeaver

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I am a little late to this thread, but I also have had some confusion on this.

I purchased a new 2023 f150 XLT FX4.

My build shows the class 4 hitch and a Integrated brake controller. The dealer told me it was good for 11,200lbs for tow. Looking here though the water seems muddy for me, because I don't see the "tow package" listed on my build. I don't need the max tow so I wouldn't have gotten the bigger radiator regardless. I just don't want to be limited to 7k, when the entire purpose of the truck was to pull a midsize Travel Trailer.

Reading these threads I haven't found anything that my trucks appears to be lacking and honestly, with how it came it might be considered a Tow package, but it wasn't explicitly stated that way when I looked at the sticker

Ford F-150 Towing Specs Consolidated Document - Bumper vs. Class IV vs. Tow vs. Max Tow - UPDATED DOC v4 20230322_092705
Ford F-150 Towing Specs Consolidated Document - Bumper vs. Class IV vs. Tow vs. Max Tow - UPDATED DOC v4 20230322_092708
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A quick follow up on this and it is probably more just to make me feel better.

The small print on the towing and rv guide ford published says equipment changes Yada Yada and to check with dealer for exact numbers.

I called my dealer and they assured me my tow is 11,300 despite having the class 4 hitch and the brake controller added on as an additional item.

I explained my concern and was informed that the only difference between my setup and the "tow package" was the inclusion of the easy backing add-on. Not sure how factual that is, but was the information given.

My Brother in law has a 2022 with the tow package and we compared the areas mentioned here. Springs/shocks are identical except I have the monoshock in rear due to fx4 package, but rating are the same. The numbers on brakes, frame, sway bar... same. The radiator is also the same. The only thing I didn't check and will need to figure out where to look is the parking brake.

Oh I do have 20" rims compared to their 18s, but that doesn't seem to be a limiting factor either.

Part of me wonders if it is the brake controller not being present by default... though 7k is much higher than the 3k required before trailer brakes in my state.
 

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"Oh I do have 20" rims compared to their 18s, but that doesn't seem to be a limiting factor either."

It isn't a direct limiting factor for tow capacity but it is a hit to payload. Its hard to nail down exactly how much, because it depends on the wheel style and the unpublished tire weight but it would be in the neighborhood of 50lbs against you.
 

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@Angrybeaver if I were in your situation, I would ask for the trailer rating they're telling you printed on dealership letterhead with a wet signature from a manager/GM. CYA and push the liability to the dealership. If I had to guess, you'll never get it from them.
 

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"Oh I do have 20" rims compared to their 18s, but that doesn't seem to be a limiting factor either."

It isn't a direct limiting factor for tow capacity but it is a hit to payload. Its hard to nail down exactly how much, because it depends on the wheel style and the unpublished tire weight but it would be in the neighborhood of 50lbs against you.
My payload capacity is about 30 lbs more than my brother in law with a tow package. The only differences are that I have fx4, the center work surface thing and I don't have the backup trailer knob.
 

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@Angrybeaver if I were in your situation, I would ask for the trailer rating they're telling you printed on dealership letterhead with a wet signature from a manager/GM. CYA and push the liability to the dealership. If I had to guess, you'll never get it from them.
You are correct, I highly doubt that they would be willing to do that.

Fun fact though, Ford has made the whole process super confusing and the numbers are obvious and require going online and downloading documentation that also is confusing.

Courts have often found this information has to be presented clearly and without having to dig it up online. It isn't reasonable to expect someone to know this information especially when ford advertises 14k max and 11k on other packages with a tiny asterisk found in documentation online.

My point is, I don't think a court would find the individual negligent when the process is so convoluted. The blame would shift to the manufacturer that failed to provide concrete numbers inside the drivers door jam.

I don't plan on pulling over 7k anytime soon, but I am also very disappointed in the way ford handled this.
 

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You are correct, I highly doubt that they would be willing to do that.

Fun fact though, Ford has made the whole process super confusing and the numbers are obvious and require going online and downloading documentation that also is confusing.

Courts have often found this information has to be presented clearly and without having to dig it up online. It isn't reasonable to expect someone to know this information especially when ford advertises 14k max and 11k on other packages with a tiny asterisk found in documentation online.

My point is, I don't think a court would find the individual negligent when the process is so convoluted. The blame would shift to the manufacturer that failed to provide concrete numbers inside the drivers door jam.

I don't plan on pulling over 7k anytime soon, but I am also very disappointed in the way ford handled this.
I don't think the tow guides are unclear at all. They cite what you need to satisfy each GCVWR and GTWR rating.

Where they do fall way short IMO, is making it so difficult to have a close expectation of payload capabilities of a custom ordered truck, which do affect what and how you can tow, re tongue weight.

I think you are optimistic of how the courts would handle this. The first few pages of most any owners manual are already filled with warnings and disclaimers, that few read and we already have permanent warning stickers placed in plain view. I for one, would rather not have any more.
 

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I don't think the tow guides are unclear at all. They cite what you need to satisfy each GCVWR and GTWR rating.

Where they do fall way short IMO, is making it so difficult to have a close expectation of payload capabilities of a custom ordered truck, which do affect what and how you can tow, re tongue weight.

I think you are optimistic of how the courts would handle this. The first few pages of most any owners manual are already filled with warnings and disclaimers, that few read and we already have permanent warning stickers placed in plain view. I for one, would rather not have any more.
Not sure about your truck, but mine doesn't show maximum tow capacity anywhere on the truck besides the bogus number on the hitch.

My truck also did not have a typical manual, it has the one available via the infotainment system which also does not provide that data.

Now I did look up how tow weight is calculated. They measure things like stopping distance, acceleration, etc.

If you look at the differences between the tow and standard.

Breaking distance would be affected if you didn't have a brake controller. This is likely one area.

I think there is also one for parking on a certain percentage steep grade, if the parking brakes are smaller this would also be one.

The problem is they don't release these results so it is impossible to see where the limitations are.
 

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Ok, so interestingly enough I was misunderstanding a lot of laws for states.

Most of them were built around travel trailers and were in regards to the unloaded trailer weight. The universal rule I am finding is that they are 100% required when the trailer + load weight on it matches or exceeds the GVWR which on most of these Trucks is 7000-7200 lbs.

This could be a coincidence, but if just going on solid requirements and not each state law this makes me again think it relates to the brake controller.

It makes sense to me. The front sway bar isn't going to be significant enough to increase weight by 4k. Same for the parking brakes.

The items on the max tow are significant in either helping the truck better distribute said weight, or provide additional cooling to help handle the additional load.

Thank you all for the comments and I am glad I found this community.
 
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You are correct, I highly doubt that they would be willing to do that.

Fun fact though, Ford has made the whole process super confusing and the numbers are obvious and require going online and downloading documentation that also is confusing.

Courts have often found this information has to be presented clearly and without having to dig it up online. It isn't reasonable to expect someone to know this information especially when ford advertises 14k max and 11k on other packages with a tiny asterisk found in documentation online.

My point is, I don't think a court would find the individual negligent when the process is so convoluted. The blame would shift to the manufacturer that failed to provide concrete numbers inside the drivers door jam.

I don't plan on pulling over 7k anytime soon, but I am also very disappointed in the way ford handled this.
Absolutely not. You can easily be held negligent/liable. The documentation is pretty clear. Footnotes and asterisks are common in technical documentation. You don’t want to assume anything with lawyers. Not exaggerating, vehicular manslaughter is absolutely in play if someone gets killed in an at fault accident when the vehicle is over weight.
 

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Angrybeaver

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Absolutely not. You can easily be held negligent/liable. The documentation is pretty clear. Footnotes and asterisks are common in technical documentation. You don’t want to assume anything with lawyers. Not exaggerating, vehicular manslaughter is absolutely in play if someone gets killed in an at fault accident when the vehicle is over weight.
If the documentation and limits are easily available and obvious to the average consumer.

Vehicle manslaughter is always on the table. The key thing is they have to prove gross negligence. As in I was fully aware of the vehicle limitations and chose to ignore them. Now in my case I am aware because I did my research, but most people won't go hunting online for this information. They will just assume they can tow xyz and since this information isn't in their owner manual and also isn't on their door jam it isn't obvious.

My point is ford is being negligent by not posting the max tow capacity in the door jam. They are also failing consumers by not being transparent on where the limit (bottleneck) exists on some or these vehicles.

I am not advising anyone go over their limit.
 

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Ok, Where would I need to take my truck to get it tested/verified for maximum towing capability?

I do find it interesting that the non-tow is 7k rating, but the GCVWR stays the same with/without the tow package.

Anyways, I am curious enough I would pay to get it tested, just not sure where to get it done.
 

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Y'all are going insane over this. I certainly wouldn't give two shits what lawyers say. Don't get into a wreck and you're good to go! Pull what you need to- it ain't like a rational sane person is weighing ANYTHING.

If anything, the highlighted difference and corresponding ratings Ford put out only prove its borderline arbitrary how much features impact the practical ability.
 

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Y'all are going insane over this. I certainly wouldn't give two shits what lawyers say. Don't get into a wreck and you're good to go! Pull what you need to- it ain't like a rational sane person is weighing ANYTHING.

If anything, the highlighted difference and corresponding ratings Ford put out only prove its borderline arbitrary how much features impact the practical ability.
Not to single you out, but this doesn't seem like good advice to me. "Don't crash" is a difficult bit of advice to follow when it's often dependent upon other road users as well.
 

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Below are the requirements needed to qualify for a particular weight. For a hitch only truck the braking test would be a hard fail. The parking brake could also be a possible fail, but I am not sure on that one.

Now the moment you add a tow controller the only variable is the parking brake. I pretty much never park on a incline that steep so this one isn't really a concern for me, but it is one area that could cause the lower weight rating.

The thing that doesnt make sense to me is this. The gross combined weight rating GCWR is the same between the IV hitch and the tow package. So the truck can handle the weight. So the difference SHOULD be something that makes a big impact... a brake controller makes a massive impact on your ability to control a trailer. My .02.



Tow Vehicle Propulsion Requirements and Level Road Acceleration
PERFORMANCE ATTRIBUTEPERFORMANCE METRICREQUIREMENT
Level Road Acceleration0-60 mph30.0 seconds single-rear-wheel/35.0 seconds dual-rear-wheel
Level Road Acceleration0-30 mph12.0 seconds single rear wheel /14.0 sseconds dual rear wheel
Level Road Acceleration40-60 mph18.0 seconds single-rear-wheel/21.0 seconds dual-rear-wheel
Launch on Grade12% grade, forward directionFive launches to 5.0 meters (16 feet) in 5 minutes
Launch on Grade12% grade, reverse directionFive launches to 5.0 meters (16 feet) in 5 minutes
Highway GradeabilityMinimum speed on grade (Davis Dam)40 mph single-rear-wheel/35 mph dual-rear-wheel
Highway GradeabilityDrivetrain system performanceNo component failures, no diagnostic codes that alert the operator, no customer warnings
Highway GradeabilityCooling system performanceNo component failures, no diagnostic codes that alert the operator to take service or driving action, no customer warnings, no fluid loss


Combination Handling Requirements
PERFORMANCE ATTRIBUTEPERFORMANCE METRICREQUIREMENT
Tow-vehicle understeerUndersteer* for0.1 g ≤ Lateral acceleration ≤ 0.3 g<0 degree/g
Trailer Sway ResponseTrailer sway damping ratio≤ 0.10 at 100 km/h (62.1 mph)
*Understeer is calculated by averaging left and right turn directionsCombination Braking Requirements
PERFORMANCE ATTRIBUTEPERFORMANCE METRICREQUIREMENT
Combination StabilityDeviation within laneRemain within a 3.5-meter-wide (11.5 feet) lane throughout stop
Combination Stopping DistanceStopping distance 20-0 mph for TWR ≤3,000 pounds≤35 feet, except ≤45 feet at any TWR above the tow vehicle’s unbraked TWR
Combination Stopping DistanceStopping distance 20-0 mph for TWR >3,000 pounds≤80 feet
Park Brake PerformanceHold on grade12% grade at GCWR (upward and downward)
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