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[Brian Head Yankee]

"the grid argument, while false, is based in reality"

huh?

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[F150ROD]

As an EV owner looking to trade said EV for an ICE F-150 I find it freakin hilarious when people argue on why you should get this or that…….

Yes that ICE F-150 will then be gone for the Lightning which will meet all my needs.

 

[Whoosh]

I wouldn’t be caught dead driving that Cybertruck. Looks like something I drew when I was 10 years old. honestly, I thought it was some kind of joke when they revealed it. But, Im sure some people love how it looks. to Each their own.

Reminds me of a TV version of "knight rider 2021" wait, that be "Tesla industries" instead of "Knight Industries"? guess the new version wont be re-named from KITT!

 

[PungoteagueDave]

The politicization of EV driving is based on a lot of falsehoods, but is rooted in the government essentially subsidizing luxury cars for rich folks. I plead guilty to that, now on my third Tesla. They are simply the best “things” we’ve every owned - truly like driving a space ship every time we get behind the wheel, but there is zero logic in the American taxpayer funding each of them to the tune of $7,500, given my balance sheet - so the resentment is understandable, further fueled by Fox News misinformation about charging times, coal-burning electricity, mined materials used in production, etc.

People spend mega bucks on supercars, or huge dollars and efforts tweaking their hemi Chargers, and my Tesla SUV can blow them away, pretty amazing that EV tech has so simply and quickly trounced internal combustion in some respects. With that said, I have a home in Palm Beach, Trump-land. And I have an F-350 diesel pickup. I am a very conservative economist, retired developer, now college professor and adventure traveler. There’s a continual Trump rally that goes on whenever the sun shines, on the Golf Road overpass over I-95, with big Trump and anti-Biden flags, (“Miss Me NOW?”), and folks yelling, always a elevated mood. It is so big that the Palm Beach County police have flashing signs at both ends saying “No parking on bridge.” It is still there, even now that the Donald has departed for the summer, to Bedminster, NJ.

When I drive my F-150 over the bridge, with its American flag front plate, I get cheers.

When I drive my Tesla Model X over the bridge, I get boos. I’m the same guy, same conservative philosophy inside, with a carry permit and a raft of AR-15 ammo at home. I’m tempted to add an NRA sticker to my Tesla to see if their heads explode, but it is really something when what you drive is now seen as defining your politics. Which, in my case, it most definitely, does not.

I’m a member of an ecological group in Virginia, where we have a farm (Chesapeake Bay Foundation), and once attended a meeting where I opened the Tesla’s rear hatch to take out a chair, and another board member spied my AR-15 in the back, which was going in for repair after the meeting - turned into a major session on why anyone would own such a thing. I eventually got her to come to our private shooting range at the farm and shoot at some targets, explained its utility in actual farm work, but it was the same thing - how could a person driving a Tesla also “be a gun person”? - which I am not - we just use them as the tools for which they are intended. I love confusing both the left and the right because they never get what they expect based on the packaging.

 

[Brian Head Yankee]

Awesome story. I had to look up what I am and the closest thing that describes me is a conservative Libertarian but i hate labels.. I have an AR-15 "ghost gun" with an unpainted receiver on purpose so it looks like it was throw together. It gets a reaction every time. (Oh wait, I lost that gun in a fishing accident)

 

[Larry Arizona]

The grid argument, while false, is at least based in reality. The ones that hurt my head are the batshit crazy arguments that fake environmental groups funded through oil and gas companies and also supported by NIMBYs use against wind energy. The best is 'Shadow Flicker' then there's low frequency hum and other nonsense that I can't remember that the writers of the X-Files probably wished that they had thought of. That is all while there are perfectly valid arguments against wind turbines which already exist, like whether or not they're actually sustainable or their danger to birds. Though, instead of looking at spreadsheets and monitoring avian populations, how about we talk about how EMF will eventually turn us all into flesh eating zombies!

I see that Ford has been using their press releases to quietly avert some of the grid arguments, like how you can use the Lightning's battery during peak energy hours to save surcharges or power your house during rolling blackouts. Though, I think that it's been quiet because it's not going to power a heck of a lot. Since the only solution is using less energy. For places that no longer allow grid-tied solar, the Lightning is an excellent alternative or enhancement to large battery walls if the usage is compatible.

Making EVs political fodder was the biggest mistake and having people like Ed Begley Jr. champion them did more harm than good, practically playing into the whole plot of GM sabotaging their EV1. Before the EV1, I subscribed to the Electrifying Times magazine and talked about it with my car enthusiast acquaintances and we all agreed how awesome it would be to build an electric drag racer and all the performance benefits of an electric drivetrain. depressingly, lead-acid deep cycle batteries were the only attainable option for the average person and the only people that converted their cars to electric were extreme enthusiasts or outré dudes with wizard beards, beer bellies and recumbent bicycles.

One thing that needs to be explained to those getting triggered anytime an EV is mentioned is that the Lightning and Mach-E are now the best friends of the V8 and with CAFE numbers going ever upward, no ICE vehicles including a reimagined Geo Metro, Suzuki Swift or Ford Festiva can save the V8s better than a battery electric vehicle.

For the EV owners clutching their pearls when a poster says the government can take a 5.0 or Ecoboost from their cold dead hands; you need to ask yourselves if you would be able to make due with public transport, ride sharing or work from home car free solutions. Then all of a sudden, you'll find yourselves making the same justifications the guys with guilty consciences are making in regards to the Lightning.

All good arguements.

But may I add a few to ponder.

1)Coal and Natural gas fired power plants are used to charge the majority of EV’s, Solar and wind can’t currently sustain the Grid alone.

2) mining of lithium and other rare earth materials for batteries is pretty devastating

3)Battery waste is toxic and recycling isn’t ready for prime time. Perhaps in time.

Just a few honest concerns before we truly label EV’s green.

 

[Pedaldude]

"the grid argument, while false, is based in reality"

huh?

Definition of reality
1: the quality or state of being real
Definition of real
(Entry 1 of 5)
c(1): occurring or existing in actuality

-Half a million EVs being charged at night in SoCal won't be crashing the grid, but both the grid and electric vehicles are tangible and the grid crashing is a potential issue (but it's feared to be more likely to happen because of power mismanagement at its origin).

fantasy: antonym of reality
Definition of fantasy:
2: a creation of the imaginative faculty whether expressed or merely conceived: such as
b: imaginative fiction featuring especially strange settings and grotesque characters

-Zombies caused by electric and magnetic fields are not real. A shadow or vibration from a wind turbine blade three miles away isn't going to give you a mystery illness.

A statement can be false, while occurring in and involving things that exist in the real world.

Which is probably why fantastic statements have become such popular rhetoric; as they can't be proven.

3)Battery waste is toxic and recycling isn’t ready for prime time. Perhaps in time.

I keep an airtight steel container on a concrete pad with all my discharged li-ion cell phone batteries as well as for others whose phones I have replaced batteries for, for when the day finally arrives.

The race is on to find the best way to recycle these batteries both for environmental concerns and financial gain. Hopefully it will be effective enough that there won't be a cooked in disposal fee like there is for tires.

The mines themselves are nothing compared with the evaporation ponds.

 

[Merccat]

I think the environmental debate of EV’s, although interesting is probably outside the scope of a truck forum.

Its the environmental selling point attached to EV’s (merited or not) that caused EV’s to become politically charged, I would rather myself talk about truck details/facts.

Personally I don’t know if they are better or worse, but my gut says there’s no such thing as a free lunch. Either way we need a certain amount of energy in order to propel our trucks (or whatever vehicle) down the road and the systems for production, storage, delivery and consumption of that energy all have impacts.

As such I am very skeptical whether anyone tries to tell me its for the environment..... yeaaaa, maybe... or maybe its better for the electric company or the battery maker, etc. It goes faster, handles better, etc... these are things I can get behind.

 

[bobinmi]

and I had someone in a 1500 chevy truck, loaded with "muffler/cam" stickers on the back window FLIP ME THE F'n bird when I was driving my FORD ALL ELECTRIC FOCUS a few years back! WTF is up with people? And I LOVE motors...but I ALSO LOVE EV..... I use the "EV" to balance out my ICE motors....I figure my Lightning will offset my sasquatch bronco! At least that's the song and dance I tell myself.

 

[ChasingCoral]

"the grid argument, while false, is based in reality"

huh?

The best conspiracy theories have just enough truthiness tossed in up front to make people believe it may be real before they lead folks down some black hole of ignorance.

 

[ChasingCoral]

1)Coal and Natural gas fired power plants are used to charge the majority of EV’s, Solar and wind can’t currently sustain the Grid alone.

At current production levels, no. However, stable grid loading with solar and wind alone doesn't become an issue until we pass 70%. By the time we get to that point the rate grid-scale storage will likely to have been brought down to cheap enough prices for large-scale deployment.

2) mining of lithium and other rare earth materials for batteries is pretty devastating

It can be. That's why we need to be on guard to reduce their impacts. However, it is very disingenuous to toss up pictures of lithium mines without an equal number of mountaintop removal photos. At least the lithium is used for years. The coal lasts for under a minute once it goes into the furnace.

3)Battery waste is toxic and recycling isn’t ready for prime time. Perhaps in time.

True. By then we'll be finished using the car batteries. Most used car batteries are immediately snapped up for use in industrial battery storage. There isn't much need for recycling yet as the batteries are mostly reused.

Just a few honest concerns before we truly label EV’s green.

No one claimed they are perfect. Just a hell of a lot better for the environment than the alternatives.

 

[Vulnox]

ChasingCoral nailed it, there are concerns, but as noted about blasting mountains, it gets reaaallll easy to overlook the effects of crude oil. There are plenty of beach photos of oil covered animals, the huge spills in our ocean and limited ground water. Pipeline leaks and so on. That's before getting into the impact when everything goes right. Fracking is an ecological nightmare that persists long after. Even normal oil drilling follows a line of:
1. Drill oil
2. Tons of spillage and energy required to find it and drill it
3. Transport it long distances to a refinery
4. Tons of fumes, energy consumption, etc, in refining.
5. Load on trucks and transport to gas stations.
6. Energy consumed running the gas station, pumps, and fumes and spills from gas being put in vehicles.
7. Vehicles burn gas and put out more fumes.
8. Every 7-10k miles, oil changes and whatever other fluids are needed, more garbage that has to be transported and disposed of.

EVs are hardly free and clear for the reasons you noted, but the dirty energy used to charge EVs isn't core to the DNA of an EV, all the steps above are core to an ICE vehicle, and aside from some miracle fossil fuel discovery, will never go away. We are constantly moving to greener EV energy production, and there are plenty of EV owners that charge their cars using solar or wind, either based on their energy company or if they produce the solar themselves. I have zero option to cleanly source my own gas.

EV mining is improving, the recycling issue was covered as there isn't yet a good reason for recycling. EV batteries aren't like the 12v battery in the truck, some giant largely single use cell. They are hundreds of almost AA sized cells that can be swapped out, reused, etc, even when they aren't good for cars any longer. We are getting better with that stuff too.

We have to face it, ICE vehicles have had over a century of constant R&D, and the only way we are really getting more out of them is auto stop/start, cylinder deactivation, turbos, etc, in hopes of finding that extra 1/10th of a percent, the whole time we just keep burning away. EVs in ten years have advanced by insane amounts in both charging and battery tech. Tesla's newest battery chemistry does away with Cobalt, which was a main complaint of human rights and environmental advocates.

Anyway, like I said earlier, there are issues with EVs, no doubt, but I feel like those issues get put on an even level to ICE vehicles, and I don't see that as the case. EVs are getting constantly cleaner, with ICE vehicles we are just trying to find ways to make them pollute fractions of a percent less per mile.

 

[Merccat]

starting every day with a "full tank"

I like this argument a lot. It still doesn’t offset the charge or range issue for me (either solution solves it) but it’s a really cool plus to think about.

It also would be beneficial if the facilities near the superstation on the way to my dad’s wasn’t crawling with questionable characters I wanted to minimize my time with (stopped there for a quick strech and immediately regretted it lol)

 

[kdkool]

Welcome to the internet where you'll just have to take things with a grain of salt. Oh, and don't feed the trolls.

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