Potential future EV credit changes [NO POLITICS]

astricklin

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I don't know why we are arguing about if labor unions are good or not. If you like this legislation, contact your representative and tell them to support it. If you don't like it, call them and tell them to change it or not support it.
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Blainestang

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I don't know why we are arguing about if labor unions are good or not. If you like this legislation, contact your representative and tell them to support it. If you don't like it, call them and tell them to change it or not support it.
To be fair, one could say the same thing about a lot of the things discussed on this forum:

Why discuss whether Ford should offer the Pro ER to retail customers? If you want it or not, just email/tweet your opinion to Ford.

If there’s a legitimate reason why Union US production should get $4500 more than US non-union, like that they pay their employees $4500 more per car, then I’d love to hear it.

If there’s a good reason why we’d pay $4500 more to Union manufacturers but NO benefit to non-Union US manufacturers compared to Foreign manufacturers, I’d love to hear it.

If there are some good reasons, I might change my mind somewhat and adjust what I’d tell my representatives.

This affects EVs substantially, so I think it’s a relevant topic… if we can keep it on topic and avoid disingenuous strawmen and telling people to “get bent” based on said strawmen.
 

Maxx

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It rewards companies that allow unions. It’s a good thing.
Especially if you are in line for Lightening since it puts both Cybertruck and Rivian at a disadvantage.

I wonder if this encourages Ford to raise their prices in an attempt to pull some of that incentive money out of our pockets and put it into Ford’s profit margine.
 

sotek2345

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Especially if you are in line for Lightening since it puts both Cybertruck and Rivian at a disadvantage.

I wonder if this encourages Ford to raise their prices in an attempt to pull some of that incentive money out of our pockets and put it into Ford’s profit margine.
I don't see any impact in the near term. Lightning production numbers (beat we know from the leak) are low enough that it doesn't really matter. Long term I think Ford will want to decide if they want to bump up prices a littler (keep XLT under the limit, but Lariat above it), or trim Lariat a bit to fit under and get the credit. If Chevy or Ram put their more luxury oriented trims under the cutoff Ford will probably be forced to as well.
 

Dadofjax

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Especially if you are in line for Lightning since it puts both Cybertruck and Rivian at a disadvantage.

I wonder if this encourages Ford to raise their prices in an attempt to pull some of that incentive money out of our pockets and put it into Ford’s profit margine.
If they raise the price a good portion of the Lightnings won't qualify because they will be over the $74K threshold.
 

greenne

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If they raise the price a good portion of the Lightnings won't qualify because they will be over the $74K threshold.
I think what Max is saying is it would be smart(on Ford's part) to lower the price of the Lariat ER to get it under $74k, then raise the price of the XLT slightly to make up the loss.

I'm not saying that's best for consumer, but there's a huge jump in price between an XLT and Lariat.

The way it stands now, if you were on the fence about an XLT ER and a Lariat ER, it would be a difference of ~$23k MSRP + a potential $12,500 tax credit. Think a lot of people would "give up" the bigger screen and leather for savings of $35k.....

Also related, Rivian pushes the $74k limit as well. The lower trim is $67k, but upper trim(both with 300mi battery) +options get you right at or above $74k

I *think* overall this is going to push prices down for EVs. A lot of Teslas are gonna bust the $55k limit for cars(a model 3 Long range, 300mi range+ FSD option pushes you over).
 
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Sgt Beavis

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Question on the union part of this legislation. Does an OEM lose that $4500 extra if the employees of a manufacturer voted down unionizing?
 

Maxx

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If they raise the price a good portion of the Lightnings won't qualify because they will be over the $74K threshold.
They may raise the price on lower trims and lower them on higher trims. That may make me drop out since I am currently at the bottom (base pro)
 

Sdctcher

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I have been watching this Senate 1298 Bill closely also for some time. Next shoe to drop is this Tuesday (Sept. 14) when they vote again. BTW the ICE 2022 F-150 goes live on ordering on Wednesday (Sept. 15). I would think the Lightning will go live within about 30 days of that date.

I am split on whether I want it to go through or just die until I get my Lightning. At the present I can buy a 2022 Platinum for maybe $95,000 (incl. sales tax) and get a $7,500 tax credit in 2023 so I could easily take $25,000 out of my IRA tax free in 2022.

But with the new bill I can get a $12,500 rebate at time of sale but am limited to a max of $74,000. Unknown is whether that max figure is listed MSRP for the trim including or excluding options. The bill says "retail price" which means something else entirely. I can find no definition for "retail price".

This basically knocks me out of a Platinum and probably the Lariat and Lariat Plus if I want any options and the extended battery at all.

I would have to settle for a loaded XLT.

But, on the other hand, I would get $12,500 to add to my down payments and have to finance a much lower amount.

I am guessing that the tax credit would no longer apply and this would be a rebate. That hits me on my IRA withdrawal, which I would have to pay taxes on.
 

Nick Gerteis

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They may raise the price on lower trims and lower them on higher trims. That may make me drop out since I am currently at the bottom (base pro)
They already made a firm commitment to sell the base Pro at $40K. They can’t and won’t backtrack from that.
 

Nick Gerteis

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To be fair, one could say the same thing about a lot of the things discussed on this forum:

Why discuss whether Ford should offer the Pro ER to retail customers? If you want it or not, just email/tweet your opinion to Ford.

If there’s a legitimate reason why Union US production should get $4500 more than US non-union, like that they pay their employees $4500 more per car, then I’d love to hear it.

If there’s a good reason why we’d pay $4500 more to Union manufacturers but NO benefit to non-Union US manufacturers compared to Foreign manufacturers, I’d love to hear it.

If there are some good reasons, I might change my mind somewhat and adjust what I’d tell my representatives.

This affects EVs substantially, so I think it’s a relevant topic… if we can keep it on topic and avoid disingenuous strawmen and telling people to “get bent” based on said strawmen.
I’m not sure I’ll change your mind, or even if it’s a legitimate reason, but Biden made a campaign promise to help create well paid unionized jobs, and that’s exactly what this legislation will do.
 

Felx Unger

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My plans are to order and take delivery of a Lightning I can afford without consideration of any Federal/State tax credits for purchase and/or utility rebates for charging equipment.

My order (date unknown) will be an iconic silver Lightning Pro with black running boards (non-negotiable with my wife) as the only option.

I believe whenever my reservation becomes an order, Ford will surpass the 200K EVs produced and Congress will pass no new legislation for EV buyers.

Don’t count on anything, best to keep expectations reasonable.

Life taught me better to be happily surprised than terribly disappointed.
 

Losi

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My plans are to order and take delivery of a Lightning I can afford without consideration of any Federal/State tax credits for purchase and/or utility rebates for charging equipment.

My order (date unknown) will be an iconic silver Lightning Pro with black running boards (non-negotiable with my wife) as the only option.

I believe whenever my reservation becomes an order, Ford will surpass the 200K EVs produced and Congress will pass no new legislation for EV buyers.

Don’t count on anything, best to keep expectations reasonable.

Life taught me better to be happily surprised than terribly disappointed.
Well said and I’m thinking of ordering the Pro as well—with no options.
 
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I was considering the Platinum strictly for the Max Recline seats for sleeping while charging on longer road trips, although it will mainly be a work truck. Basically I was justifying it as a part work truck part luxury vehicle since the lay-flat seats seemed like a must have for long trips. I didn’t want the huge wheels & didn’t want the booming sound system & could pass on many other parts of Platinum but not those seats. If this passes though and Platinum isn’t eligible for it and I can only get the seats with Platinum, I’ll seriously downsell myself because I can’t pass up this rebate if it is phased out on higher end trucks, it’s simply non negotiable - I won’t pass up the rebate. I’ll go with a much more modest Lightning, invest the rest, and hope to sell or trade in the truck down the road when those seats & other options are available in lower trims, like on the King Ranch hybrid F150 where you can get those seats on that trim. Or just wait for the Gen 2 Lightning to trade in my compromise 1st gen Lightning.
 
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ShirBlackspots

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Question on the union part of this legislation. Does an OEM lose that $4500 extra if the employees of a manufacturer voted down unionizing?
If they are not union, then the vehicle is not eligible for that $4500...

I was considering the Platinum strictly for the Max Recline seats for sleeping while charging on longer road trips, although it will mainly be a work truck. Basically I was justifying it as a part work truck part luxury vehicle since the lay-flat seats seemed like a must have for long trips. I didn’t want the huge wheels & didn’t want the booming sound system & could pass on many other parts of Platinum but not those seats. If this passes though and Platinum isn’t eligible for it and I can only get the seats with Platinum, I’ll seriously downsell myself because I can’t pass up this rebate if it is phased out on higher end trucks, it’s simply non negotiable - I won’t pass up the rebate. I’ll go with a much more modest Lightning, invest the rest, and hope to sell or trade in the truck down the road when those seats & other options are available in lower trims, like on the King Ranch hybrid F150 where you can get those seats on that trim. Or just wait for the Gen 2 Lightning to trade in my compromise 1st gen Lightning.
Do you really think you'll need to take a 30-45 minute nap while charging on a long trip? Something that won't happen but a few times a year.
 
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