Sponsored

NHTSA opens investigation on Fords Bluecruise

Cobra129

Well-known member
First Name
Allan
Joined
Jul 25, 2023
Threads
12
Messages
111
Reaction score
106
Location
Central Florida
Vehicles
2023 F-150 Powerboost
Occupation
USN Retired
me to
i am familiar with that particular road in San Antonio where the mach 3 hit a parked vehicle in the travel lane
its treacherous even in the best of lighting and conditions. lots of reflective light off concrete and weird shadows
almost as bad as 35 in Austin on the lower level of highway

anyway
I dont have BC, but have adative cruise, evasive steering etc.

but the question about range of the radar got me thinking about an issue i noticed in our new explorer with adaptive cruise and differences between my 22 f150. surely both vehicles use the same radar on the front of the vehicle or at least the same parameters???????

THE RANGE or the spot at which the two vehicles decide to slow down as it approaches a vehicle going somewhat slower, say i am doing 70 and vehicle i am closing on is 65- 60 range
the distance setting is set at 2 bars in both the truck and the explorer
the truck will slow or change speed at a more LESS apprehensive (me getting nervous we are about to collide) distance than the explorer, in fact the explorer is still full bore at a point that i get nervous and get my foot ready to brake or my hand ready to cancel cruise

i have ran both vehicles at all four distance settings and the explorer gets me into the nervous zone
in distance 2 and 3 before it takes action to slow.

i have not used distance 1 as i am afraid it might collide or do a panic brake action
the truck is always very smooth in its deceleration and speed change to the point at those speeds its almost imperceptible, it just slows down like you canceled cruise, vice stab the brake
the explorer feels more like you stab the brake and at a much closer distance

i say all this because 300 meter or 400 meters. at 70 its accepted that a vehicle could cover 103 (31 meters)feet per second . 300 meters is a tad over 900 feet. which if a radar sees an abject at 300 meters it has about 9 seconds to make a decision. 9 seconds is a LONG LONG TIME.

but at 300 meters it may SEE the object , but not compute its stationary due to all the other factors.
does the vehicle at 300 meters, start to decide A its not moving, B its moving but its rate is different, or C its looking for an evasive decision at xxx feet of distance?
so if the moving vehicle sees the object at 300 meters (900 feet), what does the software do or how does it do its thing?
curious if the mach e simply didnt pick up the stopped vehicle until TIME ran out, so 100 feet or maybe 200 feet, it was obvious it applied braking action,
imo one little radar on the front fascia cant see everything. its not like a f14 and can track mutliple targets and plot a solution...can it
I'm sure the Ford and all other makes Radar can't determine if an object it detects is moving or not, only the apparent rate of separation, closing or separating from the radar. Ford could resolve that problem by installing DOPPLER radar, :) then again, the price would skyrocket. Like anything else, drivers should read the instructions and follow the directions.

In the UK, they allow use of the shoulder for an additional lane on their Motorways when traffic is heavy. They also have sensors along the shoulders that detect a stopped vehicle on the shoulder and have signals farther back that immediately closes that lane until the vehicle is removed...Cheers
Sponsored

 

2Lazy2P

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 24, 2022
Threads
10
Messages
200
Reaction score
107
Location
PNW
Vehicles
2022 3.5 EB Platinum FX4 701A
Last August, I drove R/T from WA state to Denver. When 80 MPH was the posted speed and BC was available on that stretch of highway, BC was active. When I exceeded 80 MPH BC disengaged.

I remain cautious about relying on BC, particularly as it will disengage abruptly when a section of highway is not included in BC. If I plot my confidence factor using BC it’s a 5/10. When I use cruise control with lane centering it’s a 6/10.
 

powerboatr

Well-known member
First Name
Robert
Joined
May 9, 2022
Threads
140
Messages
3,243
Reaction score
3,722
Location
North East Texas, Piney Woods
Vehicles
2022 F150 King Ranch 4x4
Occupation
Retired Navy Senior Chief
I'm sure the Ford and all other makes Radar can't determine if an object it detects is moving or not, only the apparent rate of separation, closing or separating from the radar. Ford could resolve that problem by installing DOPPLER radar, :) then again, the price would skyrocket. Like anything else, drivers should read the instructions and follow the directions.

In the UK, they allow use of the shoulder for an additional lane on their Motorways when traffic is heavy. They also have sensors along the shoulders that detect a stopped vehicle on the shoulder and have signals farther back that immediately closes that lane until the vehicle is removed...Cheers
i have no idea,
but just as an old aircraft mechanic
radar sees the object, then sees it again a few seconds or sweep later and it has moved or not, the radar system knows this... does the automobile radar setup have this ???
the smart ones here i am sure know the refresh rate of the radar and camera to update the system for action

it might now be able to see 400 or 300 meters, it may be much shorter as stared in the 150 to 200 meter area...thats CLOSE , but still near 500 to 600 feet which is 3 seconds or less at 70
thats not much time for error at all

i agree using the driving AIDS are just that...they are AIDS to help us be safer, they are NOT a replacement for the human being alert and ready to take action.

for me the aids, take some of the workload down on the highway drives.. i can spend a few more seconds looking farther ahead and reading tell tales of tail lights and other things that the computer does not "SEE"

i thought last night about headlights and how far they give us a view at night and at 70 mph
its not near far enough, without high beams or glare free lights.

and at 70 in a dark area with very low reflective light and shadows all around, a person may not see a stopped DARK vehicle until maybe 300 to 400 feet if that close, then its WHOA and braking ..
our legs dont react that fast, so look at now you have 100-200 feet to STOP or evasive lane change
that is a WHOLE lot of problem solving in a blink of an eye.

i hope the NTSB does a real world look, not try to play blame without real data
 
Last edited:

Dakar09

Well-known member
First Name
Tony
Joined
Mar 12, 2024
Threads
2
Messages
162
Reaction score
162
Location
Dedham, MA
Vehicles
2024 F-150 Lariat 5.0L
Man, I'm all for technology, but I'm also a FIRM believer in driving your own vehicle and being in control at all times..

I wonder if this is all being investigated because of the investigations into Tesla's autopilot at the same time. IMO, this technology is NOT ready yet.
 

HammaMan

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 7, 2022
Threads
79
Messages
4,975
Reaction score
5,225
Location
SE US
Vehicles
2022 307a PB, Mach E GTPE
I'm sure the Ford and all other makes Radar can't determine if an object it detects is moving or not, only the apparent rate of separation, closing or separating from the radar. Ford could resolve that problem by installing DOPPLER radar, :) then again, the price would skyrocket. Like anything else, drivers should read the instructions and follow the directions.

In the UK, they allow use of the shoulder for an additional lane on their Motorways when traffic is heavy. They also have sensors along the shoulders that detect a stopped vehicle on the shoulder and have signals farther back that immediately closes that lane until the vehicle is removed...Cheers
This is a frequency modulated continuous wave radar and is more accurate than doppler.
Ford F-150 NHTSA opens investigation on Fords Bluecruise 1714490834655-9t


It's firing 3 different channels continuously in 50ms bursts ea consecutively with 290MHz of bandwidth (ea) in the mmWAVE frequencies (higher frequencies produce higher resolutions.. The issue is its processing power (making sense of the return) and its program. It simply discards stopped objects as terrain/clutter, which is silly because it should be detecting large stopped objects but it's adas L2 sufficient in that it relies on the driver to be paying attention. Given the progression and understanding of this 4 year old product (as in been produced 4 years now, it's likely 2 years older than that).

NHTSA / NTSB may come back and say something "Sorry guys, you're not detecting a clear and obvious threat, we suggest you change the software" and that could trigger aptiv and ford to have to update or stop using the unit (going forward, which they're already ready to do) if it's just not got the processing power to handle obstructions like a stopped vehicle. L2 adas = driver paying full attention, this meets those requirements. L3 requires stopped vehicle detection in the dark. L2 are acting 100% as designed and are NOT meant for a driver to not focus on the trajectory of the vehicle.
 

Sponsored

powerboatr

Well-known member
First Name
Robert
Joined
May 9, 2022
Threads
140
Messages
3,243
Reaction score
3,722
Location
North East Texas, Piney Woods
Vehicles
2022 F150 King Ranch 4x4
Occupation
Retired Navy Senior Chief
This is a frequency modulated continuous wave radar and is more accurate than doppler.
1714490834655-9t.png


It's firing 3 different channels continuously in 50ms bursts ea consecutively with 290MHz of bandwidth (ea) in the mmWAVE frequencies (higher frequencies produce higher resolutions.. The issue is its processing power (making sense of the return) and its program. It simply discards stopped objects as terrain/clutter, which is silly because it should be detecting large stopped objects but it's adas L2 sufficient in that it relies on the driver to be paying attention. Given the progression and understanding of this 4 year old product (as in been produced 4 years now, it's likely 2 years older than that).

NHTSA / NTSB may come back and say something "Sorry guys, you're not detecting a clear and obvious threat, we suggest you change the software" and that could trigger aptiv and ford to have to update or stop using the unit (going forward, which they're already ready to do) if it's just not got the processing power to handle obstructions like a stopped vehicle. L2 adas = driver paying full attention, this meets those requirements. L3 requires stopped vehicle detection in the dark. L2 are acting 100% as designed and are NOT meant for a driver to not focus on the trajectory of the vehicle.
thanks
my wifes edge a 2012 my, we recently sold , had the adaptive cruise and heads up red bar alert with AEB it worked really well, except it liked to slow down for tall grass in the medians on the highway
not sure what version of radar it had or the age, i hope we are all not still using a ten year old at least device ???
 

brfertig

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 13, 2024
Threads
10
Messages
162
Reaction score
207
Location
United States
Vehicles
2023 F150 XLT 5.0 4X4 ELocker Fox Racing w/35's
Occupation
Sr Project Manager & Investor
I purposely avoided Blues Clues. 🐶 The product is just not ready for an immature public that litigates everyone else for their failure to understand technology and live within those requirements. Present company excluded of course. ;)
 

Cobra129

Well-known member
First Name
Allan
Joined
Jul 25, 2023
Threads
12
Messages
111
Reaction score
106
Location
Central Florida
Vehicles
2023 F-150 Powerboost
Occupation
USN Retired
My last work and experience with radars was way back, flying the A-6 Intruder back in the 70's and 80's. It was equipped with the AN/APG-148 radar which is/was a pulse Doppler Kᵤ band multi-mode radar that was developed and manufactured by Northrop Grumman and used extensively for terrain following at night and in crappy weather. The J-band AN/APQ-148 was the first one in the radar family that had achieved the capability to replace two separate radars with a single multi-function radar. It was really an outstanding, low-level, all-weather radar that was excellent.....with the proper training.

I knew somewhat of the Tomcat radar since they were our sister squadrons in the airwing and we flew/briefed with them many times.....thanks, and your explanation is excellent.
 

Cobra129

Well-known member
First Name
Allan
Joined
Jul 25, 2023
Threads
12
Messages
111
Reaction score
106
Location
Central Florida
Vehicles
2023 F-150 Powerboost
Occupation
USN Retired
i have no idea,
but just as an old aircraft mechanic
radar sees the object, then sees it again a few seconds or sweep later and it has moved or not, the radar system knows this... does the automobile radar setup have this ???
the smart ones here i am sure know the refresh rate of the radar and camera to update the system for action

it might now be able to see 400 or 300 meters, it may be much shorter as stared in the 150 to 200 meter area...thats CLOSE , but still near 500 to 600 feet which is 3 seconds or less at 70
thats not much time for error at all

i agree using the driving AIDS are just that...they are AIDS to help us be safer, they are NOT a replacement for the human being alert and ready to take action.

for me the aids, take some of the workload down on the highway drives.. i can spend a few more seconds looking farther ahead and reading tell tales of tail lights and other things that the computer does not "SEE"

i thought last night about headlights and how far they give us a view at night and at 70 mph
its not near far enough, without high beams or glare free lights.

and at 70 in a dark area with very low reflective light and shadows all around, a person may not see a stopped DARK vehicle until maybe 300 to 400 feet if that close, then its WHOA and braking ..
our legs dont react that fast, so look at now you have 100-200 feet to STOP or evasive lane change
that is a WHOLE lot of problem solving in a blink of an eye.

i hope the NTSB does a real world look, not try to play blame without real data

Cheers and as I told Hammaman, my experience with these radars date back to the 70's, 80's 90's and nothing since. All this is new tech to me...
 

HammaMan

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 7, 2022
Threads
79
Messages
4,975
Reaction score
5,225
Location
SE US
Vehicles
2022 307a PB, Mach E GTPE

Sponsored


powerboatr

Well-known member
First Name
Robert
Joined
May 9, 2022
Threads
140
Messages
3,243
Reaction score
3,722
Location
North East Texas, Piney Woods
Vehicles
2022 F150 King Ranch 4x4
Occupation
Retired Navy Senior Chief
My last work and experience with radars was way back, flying the A-6 Intruder back in the 70's and 80's. It was equipped with the AN/APG-148 radar which is/was a pulse Doppler Kᵤ band multi-mode radar that was developed and manufactured by Northrop Grumman and used extensively for terrain following at night and in crappy weather. The J-band AN/APQ-148 was the first one in the radar family that had achieved the capability to replace two separate radars with a single multi-function radar. It was really an outstanding, low-level, all-weather radar that was excellent.....with the proper training.

I knew somewhat of the Tomcat radar since they were our sister squadrons in the airwing and we flew/briefed with them many times.....thanks, and your explanation is excellent.
A6 those were some non pretty planes
but carried a buttt load of wing mounted items

i overhauled ea6Bs for a while, another ugly duck
thank you for the NAVY service🇱🇷
 

Cobra129

Well-known member
First Name
Allan
Joined
Jul 25, 2023
Threads
12
Messages
111
Reaction score
106
Location
Central Florida
Vehicles
2023 F-150 Powerboost
Occupation
USN Retired
A6 those were some non pretty planes
but carried a buttt load of wing mounted items

i overhauled ea6Bs for a while, another ugly duck
thank you for the NAVY service🇱🇷
I absolutely loved the intruder (1500 hrs and 450+ landing) and yes, a great mission, carried a boat load of weapons, a strong and sturdy bird but not as pretty as the sleek f-14's, it was truly a beautiful bird.

But as we said while I was serving, 'Fighters pilots make movies, Attack pilots make history'...:):fingerscrossed: thank you for your service and support. Cheers!
 

JExpedition07

Well-known member
First Name
James
Joined
Feb 14, 2023
Threads
53
Messages
1,622
Reaction score
2,581
Location
Buffalo NY
Vehicles
2023 F-150 STX 5.0L V8
I am pretty sure the camera takes care of fixed objects and pedestrians for AEB. The only thing the radar seems to do per the manual is pick up on approaches at an angle (say you are turning into an oncoming lane) or approach on an another vehicle for speed adjustment. FWIW my STX has no radar and the AEB saved my ass when some lady stomped on the brakes in front of me. By the time I tapped the brakes it maxed out and avoided getting me into a rear end where I would have been at fault.
Ford F-150 NHTSA opens investigation on Fords Bluecruise IMG_6885
 

nitrobass24

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 3, 2023
Threads
13
Messages
316
Reaction score
209
Location
Dallas
Website
redboxplus.com
Vehicles
'21 F150 Platinum PB
Occupation
Roll offs and Porta-Potties
Lots of highways here in the western US are posted at 80 MPH but I haven't tried that with BC yet on my 24 F150 (picked it up Saturday) but I will Thursday on the way to Colorado from Idaho. Looking forward to a long trip to see how everything works.
I reccomend setting your CC to 79mph, on downhills you can easily hit 81 and it will kick you out of Handfree mode.
 

coaster57

Well-known member
First Name
Russell
Joined
Jul 31, 2021
Threads
0
Messages
79
Reaction score
34
Location
Caldwell Idaho
Vehicles
2024 Platnum high 702A 4x4 on order.
Occupation
Retired
I reccomend setting your CC to 79mph, on downhills you can easily hit 81 and it will kick you out of Handfree mode.
Thank you for that reccomendaton! I'll do that since the rocky mountains are the areas I'll be driving. I appreciate the heads up on handsfree mode. I still need to figure out how to reset the average MPG on the display.
Sponsored

 
 




Top