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sotek2345

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I did take the liberty to exaggerate some of the angst being posted about how miffed some folks are with Ford ALREADY. And 99% of it is still just rumor and conjecture. So, I had a little fun with it. Obviously I didn't mean anyone was "hurting for Lightening" literally.

As for not being able to fetch a Lightening 3 years from now unless I am on a reservation list today..... You could be right. But that would mean that 3 years from now there wouldn't be a single F150 Lightening on the road being driven by someone who isn't on the list today.

I don't know. I can't quite buy that. (pun absolutely intended. I can't resist ??)

Admittedly it will likely be a small percentage that will fall outside of the official reservation setup, but it's inevitable.
There will probably be some around that were abandoned orders or where big dealers forced Ford's hand and got ahead of reservation holders. Going from the Mach-e experience, you can expect to pay a significant ADM ($10k+) on those.
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NoCo150

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Also, people looking to go the hope and see route vs reserving will also have a very very hard time getting the model, battery, options, and color they want. Not to mention the crazy ADM that will come with any Lightning available on a lot.

I guess there are people out there willing to pay $50k+ for a SR Pro though.
I have a Lightning reserved it will be my wife’s the range isn’t where I would trade my PowerBoost in for the EV truck. But my wife drives locally and we will use my truck for trips and towing the camper. The dealer I ordered through has assured me in writing that they will not be adding any fees or upcharges to the deal. Hopefully they are speaking the truth or I will walk away from the purchase.
 

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A Lightening should never be intimidated by a Powerboost. Or vice-versa. They are awesome siblings. They should play nicely together since combined they have ALL the bases covered. ?
True. I think the rivalry is healthy (and necessary because it's going to be a long time before battery energy density and charge time equal a tank of the dinosaur droppings.) If anything I want to see the Hybrid benefitting from the technology in the Lightning and the Hybrid joined by a plug-in hybrid, etc. Ford has the technology (shared under the Lincoln sub-brand) and clearly sees the motivation to bring these cash cows to market.
 

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A Lightening should never be intimidated by a Powerboost. Or vice-versa. They are awesome siblings. They should play nicely together since combined they have ALL the bases covered. ?
Best comment I’ve seen for a long time.?
 

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I have a Lightning reserved it will be my wife’s the range isn’t where I would trade my PowerBoost in for the EV truck. But my wife drives locally and we will use my truck for trips and towing the camper. The dealer I ordered through has assured me in writing that they will not be adding any fees or upcharges to the deal. Hopefully they are speaking the truth or I will walk away from the purchase.
Exactly what we are doing as well and I suppose we’re not alone. I can’t imagine trading our PB, but we plan to save a ton of money as fuel prices rise using the Lightning Pro SR as our daily driver.
 

techguydave

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True. I think the rivalry is healthy (and necessary because it's going to be a long time before battery energy density and charge time equal a tank of the dinosaur droppings.) If anything I want to see the Hybrid benefitting from the technology in the Lightning and the Hybrid joined by a plug-in hybrid, etc. Ford has the technology (shared under the Lincoln sub-brand) and clearly sees the motivation to bring these cash cows to market.
I wonder if they're planning on doing a PHEV for the F150 (and maybe even 250) to address those workloads that can't be done with current battery tech. That'd be the next logical step until we can get higher range and quicker charge times with BEVs.
 

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I wonder if they're planning on doing a PHEV for the F150 (and maybe even 250) to address those workloads that can't be done with current battery tech. That'd be the next logical step until we can get higher range and quicker charge times with BEVs.
The biggest obstacle I see to Ford adding a plugin Hybrid F150 is that there would be no purpose for plugging in unless you were charging a battery much different than what is currently in the Powerboost. Afterall, that's a tiny battery by typical Hybrid standards. Of course Ford was BRILLIANT in the way they leveraged what at first glance might have you wondering why did they even bother? :)
It's now obvious to those of us with a Powerboost that Ford thought outside of the Hybrid box and used the Hybrid technology to build a very unique truck. Sure, they get you a little more fuel economy over a 3.5 Ecoboost truck, but they also give you the most powerful (HP/Tq) F150 equipped with that brilliant 7.2KW onboard rolling power grid.

But why the little battery? Because it's a pickup truck and if they had sacrificed all the Payload capacity of a truck to carry around it huge heavy battery, we'd be calling it a poser-truck.

Sure, you could get 30mpg (or more), but a cargo capacity of 800lbs would set the press on fire!

In my opinion, the only way they can put a battery worthy of us having our cake and eating it too is for Ford to make the HDPP frame available to the Powerboost. I still scratch my head why it's not an option because the Powerboost is the ULTIMATE RV boondocking platform ever. Imagine it with 2600 or 2700lbs of Cargo Capacity.

And even if they used the HDPP platform to offer a BIG battery Powerboost, we would then have a Plug in F150 without having embarrassing Payload.

I'm still holding out hope that Ford considers the electrification of the F150 (Powerboost and Lightning) to be successful enough for them to expand on it. That just beggs for them to leverage the HDPP chassis for either a towing monster of a Powerboost OR a battery monster version of a Hybrid.
 

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The biggest obstacle I see to Ford adding a plugin Hybrid F150 is that there would be no purpose for plugging in unless you were charging a battery much different than what is currently in the Powerboost. Afterall, that's a tiny battery by typical Hybrid standards. Of course Ford was BRILLIANT in the way they leveraged what at first glance might have you wondering why did they even bother? :)
It's now obvious to those of us with a Powerboost that Ford thought outside of the Hybrid box and used the Hybrid technology to build a very unique truck. Sure, they get you a little more fuel economy over a 3.5 Ecoboost truck, but they also give you the most powerful (HP/Tq) F150 equipped with that brilliant 7.2KW onboard rolling power grid.

But why the little battery? Because it's a pickup truck and if they had sacrificed all the Payload capacity of a truck to carry around it huge heavy battery, we'd be calling it a poser-truck.

Sure, you could get 30mpg (or more), but a cargo capacity of 800lbs would set the press on fire!

In my opinion, the only way they can put a battery worthy of us having our cake and eating it too is for Ford to make the HDPP frame available to the Powerboost. I still scratch my head why it's not an option because the Powerboost is the ULTIMATE RV boondocking platform ever. Imagine it with 2600 or 2700lbs of Cargo Capacity.

And even if they used the HDPP platform to offer a BIG battery Powerboost, we would then have a Plug in F150 without having embarrassing Payload.

I'm still holding out hope that Ford considers the electrification of the F150 (Powerboost and Lightning) to be successful enough for them to expand on it. That just beggs for them to leverage the HDPP chassis for either a towing monster of a Powerboost OR a battery monster version of a Hybrid.
The specs of the Lincoln PHEVs could be applied to the F-150 and F-250. While the "ten times bigger" capacity of the Aviator PHEV might seem impossible, it's about 700lbs all-up for the Aviator phev drive-train and as noted, well within the design of the F-150 to change the suspension to handle this weight and maintain payload and towing specs. Round figures, I'd say adding 10kWh to the 1.5kWh in the F-150 Hybrid would add 200lbs. A bigger electric motor and adequate cooling could be another 50lbs. A 1 minute survey of the caverns of space between the frame rails of the Hybrid, and taking Ford's knowledge of the Lightning and Lincoln products, the decision to go with a 1.5kWh battery instead of say a 30 kWh battery was a marketing and product planning decision to create a road map of upgrades as the market responds (as it has done) to the proposition of a Hybrid pickup. I only wish they'd gone with a V8 instead of the V6.
The road map includes putting the F-150 PowerBoost in the Expedition. That's the 1.5kWh battery. This looks like conventional product family arrangement to me – if they offered an PHEV Ford it would overlap the Lincoln value, if they offered a bigger battery in the F-150 Hybrid it would (further) overlap the Lightning.
The value of a PHEV tow vehicle is both the short range duty, running potentially all-electric driving for the working day plus the vehicle-grid operating cost advantage of taking "cheap" electricity from the grid at the charge point and using it at the work site. For long range and towing, the larger battery can (with a larger motor) produce more torque-fill and absorb more regen, allowing the PHEV to keep the ICE off or operating under optimal mpg load. The 1.5kWh battery capacity will be overstressed (batteries don't "like" to be taken quickly or repeatedly from fully depleted to fully charged) and cannot absorb the inertia of the added trailer weight or the scenario of long downhill regen. An ideal example scenario would be towing over a mountain range … the battery/motor keep the ICE at optimal mpg, clipping off the torque peaks, and on the way down the other side of the mountain, regen absorbing the momentum of the trailer.
Real world today, regen is only a fraction of battery peak output in a BEV, but in the Lightning and other future electric pickups, regen can be much higher and batteries are already capable of absorbing over 250kW (from an external charge controller … so there's a question of an onboard charging handling those higher power rates.)
Ford already has the technology and real world data from the Lincoln Aviator PHEV – 494 hp, 630 tq with EPA 54 city/58 highway/56 combined MPGe/23 gas combined mpg; 21 miles' electric range from a 3.0 V6 equivalent of PowerBoost. This demonstrates the necessary battery and motor duty cycle (cooling) … I think that electric drive train adapted to the 3.5 PowerBoost makes sense, except it makes too much sense because if that's a '22 model, what could Ford bring for a '23 model? : )
 

Snakebitten

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I like your viewpoint.
But what were you saying your weight increase would be for the battery size and motor size required to meet your desires of a PHEV? (I mean increase over existing Powerboost battery/motor)

Keep in mind that once Cargo Capacity drops below ~1500lbs, the crying begins amongst the folks that choose a 1/2 ton for towing loads with a WDH. Basically RV towing. The current Powerboost is already barely hanging on to 1500lbs, unless you start with a stripped XL trim. That'll give you 1900lbs in 2WD. But few purchase XL's to sit in for 1000 mile weekend and summer adventure.

Again, with the additional ~800-1000lbs of Cargo Capacity afforded with the HDPP F150 chassis, your wishes would be possible today! But at this point Ford will not allow the HDPP option for the Powerboost or any trim above XLT.

Here's my brother's XLT 3.5 Ecoboost HDPP F150's Payload capacity. He can drop ONE THOUSAND POUNDS on his truck and STILL have more Cargo Capacity/Payload left to use than my Powerboost starts with. Simply amazing, if you think about it.

Ford F-150 Lightning Impressions from Ford F-150 Lightning EV Tour -- Boston maxpay1
 

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tkeru408

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I like your viewpoint.
But what were you saying your weight increase would be for the battery size and motor size required to meet your desires of a PHEV? (I mean increase over existing Powerboost battery/motor)

Keep in mind that once Cargo Capacity drops below ~1500lbs, the crying begins amongst the folks that choose a 1/2 ton for towing loads with a WDH. Basically RV towing. The current Powerboost is already barely hanging on to 1500lbs, unless you start with a stripped XL trim. That'll give you 1900lbs in 2WD. But few purchase XL's to sit in for 1000 mile weekend and summer adventure.

Again, with the additional ~800-1000lbs of Cargo Capacity afforded with the HDPP F150 chassis, your wishes would be possible today! But at this point Ford will not allow the HDPP option for the Powerboost or any trim above XLT.

Here's my brother's XLT 3.5 Ecoboost HDPP F150's Payload capacity. He can drop ONE THOUSAND POUNDS on his truck and STILL have more Cargo Capacity/Payload left to use than my Powerboost starts with. Simply amazing, if you think about it.

maxpay1.jpg
I've got Payload envy! My '18 Ecoboost Platinum has 1512 lbs payload, the one '21 Powerboost Platinum I looked at earlier this year only had a 1279 lb payload capacity. :cry:
 

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I like your viewpoint.
But what were you saying your weight increase would be for the battery size and motor size required to meet your desires of a PHEV? (I mean increase over existing Powerboost battery/motor)
250lbs as a rough guess googling, 1 kWh of battery is 9 kg (call it 10lbs) so 10kWh is roughly 200lbs and I'm adding 50lbs for better cooling and a bigger motor as well as the cabling and connector for the plug receptacle.
Keep in mind that once Cargo Capacity drops below ~1500lbs, the crying begins amongst the folks that choose a 1/2 ton for towing loads with a WDH. Basically RV towing. The current Powerboost is already barely hanging on to 1500lbs, unless you start with a stripped XL trim. That'll give you 1900lbs in 2WD. But few purchase XL's to sit in for 1000 mile weekend and summer adventure.
I think the PowerBoost is a little shy on max payload, but it's not a dealbreaker for me or I imagine most luxury pickup buyers (some luxury pickups have very low tow and haul specs as a compromise for off road suspension.) Anyway, adding 250lbs dead weight between the chassis rails and a stiffer leaf and maybe the max tow brakes would be the simple solution. As someone else posted, I'd like to see them do some melding of the Hybrid and the Lightning to get the interesting rear suspension that enables the weight of the Lightning to drive nicely around an autocross course.
Again, with the additional ~800-1000lbs of Cargo Capacity afforded with the HDPP F150 chassis, your wishes would be possible today! But at this point Ford will not allow the HDPP option for the Powerboost or any trim above XLT.
The parts bin of the HDPP seems like the easy way to make the PHEV (and the Hybrid) haul and tow as much as anyone would normally want with a 150 (and more than I've ever put in a diesel Super Duty.
Here's my brother's XLT 3.5 Ecoboost HDPP F150's Payload capacity. He can drop ONE THOUSAND POUNDS on his truck and STILL have more Cargo Capacity/Payload left to use than my Powerboost starts with. Simply amazing, if you think about it.

maxpay1.jpg
I assume HDPP rides better than an empty Super Duty and definitely provides a lot of weight rating.
I would have thought HDPP would include additional cooling, but apparently it's just gearing and springs.
It seems to me there should be at least one spring option between standard and HDPP.
Of course it's a luxury to have any of these options compared to a Toyota/Nissan or whatever the first EV pickups will offer which will be one size fits all.
All these specs have asterisks and terms like "conventional" (which I assume means the spec is the max number and subject to ambient temperature and altitude.)
My PowerBoost has the Max Tow option and the payload is 1334lbs which I could exceed by having a metal bed cover and a bed full of tools and gear.
Ford F-150 Lightning Impressions from Ford F-150 Lightning EV Tour -- Boston Big Ears GVWR

Anyway, I bought the F-150 Prius to tow a triple axle trailer that never goes over about 9-11K lbs … and now with the onboard power, the trailer doesn't need to have it's own Honda 3000 generator … that's 150lbs right up on the draw bar. As long as I don't have too much in the bed, the numbers for towing are well within spec. I have trailer tongue scales but guesstimating rear axle load from ride height compression just with the payload, I'm not worried about exceeding rear GAWR.
I'm repeating the point, but I fail to see how a marketing/product decision maker said the PowerBoost shouldn't get heavy duty springs. Maybe most Limited buyers don't care but I'd like an incremental spring pack to up the payload.
I wonder what the CCD suspension can haul. I guess there's numbers for it somewhere but I guess they don't factor dampers in the payload calculations. I'd say dampers are an important factor – it's not just the suspension loading up, or gears overloaded, it's what happens when you're at 60 mph, go over bump and need to brake … does it all go straight or straight in the ditch?
 

Jack in Prescott

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Interesting discussion. Of course, broadening model and powertrain choices distributes a given level of customer demand across a broader range of builds the manufacturer must build and then sell. That usually doesn't work. I wouldn't have opted for a heavier suspension as, looking at option weights, realized I could get my ~1500# payload goal for a Powerboost while still getting all the options I felt important. (In reality, I'm amazed at the magnitude of features they packed into my Lariat PB). So if I'm typical of the PB vs. 'Super PB' buyer, I'd opt for the lower priced, small battery PB. But meanwhile Ford is presumably also building a Super PB model for some subset of the PB market? Or has Ford closed off the 'regular' PB models to build the more expensive model, leaving me to perhaps shop elsewhere. Yes, there are lots of ways to play with the parts bin but....for a given level of demand, I don't think the sales/marketing guys and gals would believe there is a viable 'both' alternative. Each PB-type product would simply cannibalize the other.

I'm also not seeing the space that would be required by expanding the form factor of the 1.5KW battery by a multiple of 6 or so times. (see the pic below for why I say that)

And as someone else already pointed out, even if the enlarged battery/motor assembly 'only' added an additional ~300#, that would have been a deal breaker for some of us. We just finished dragging a 6-ton rig (PB + 5800# trailer) up the west side of the Rockies and hauling it back home down the eastern side, AZ to MT and back. First stop after departure was the scales. There's just two of us (300# total) and the 45# pooch plus some small things in the bed. Add the tongue weight and we only had 200# of remaining payload...and that was with only 10 gals/water. This was our first long-distance PB tow (~3,000 miles) and it was probably a 'most challenging ' scenario in the sense that we were almost always climbing & descending, most often between 4,000' and 7,500' MSL. Don't forget: 1,000' more elevation = 3% less hp and, while the turbos worked hard to make up most of that, the ripple effect was 8-9 gph on the elevation change legs vs. 12+ mpg on level sections of the run. And BTW the motor's contribution on that trip was invisible when towing and, I suspect, not in use while in tow/haul mode. No 'percent recharge' messages indicating the battery was depleted, no change in rpm (other than transmission shifts) as the motor's power came on/cancelled.

We just did a 250 mile run down to Scottsdale and back without the trailer. My wife, who was not keen on buying a pickup vs. a SUV as our towing vehicle, was elated to hear I wanted to take the PB. Super quiet and comfy riding on the road, Sirius humming in the background, great sight lines enroute and 30 mpg down (hill) and 18 on the return, all of it close to the max speed limits allowed. This is my first half-ton truck; I'm no expert on 'truck stuff' and it was mostly (totally?) dumb luck that Ford decided to build the PB they did and made it available just when I was shopping. I bought it sight unseen (May production but Dec order) and find it's as close to a perfect choice for our needs as is possible in the real world.

Ford F-150 Lightning Impressions from Ford F-150 Lightning EV Tour -- Boston F150 PB Frame Assembly without cab and bed
 
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Snakebitten

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Excellent post ^ because it is actual experience with the Powerboost towing near Cargo Capacity. :)

You might not know it but somehow Ford added a three hundred pounds to GVW for the Powerboost. I can't find any documentation that accounts for what they did to achieve it. Same axle and leaf pack as the non-Powerboost. My only guess is that the battery storage area crossmember might have allowed for the frame to be specified to carry that additional GVW?
Without that #300 increase, you would have been 100#'s over?

So can I ask about the "supposedly Ford is working on a Super-Powerboost" ? ??

It sure seems like they should offer the "utility" of the 7.2KW power grid to the SuperDuty line for all the obvious reasons.
(Although I will still dream about Ford allowing the the current F150 HDPP motor choice to add the Hybrid 3.5 to the current choices of 3.5EB & 5.0 Coyote)

Ford F-150 Lightning Impressions from Ford F-150 Lightning EV Tour -- Boston Screenshot_20211022-140253_OneDrive
 

Jack in Prescott

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I was just working off the earlier premise that a HD version of the PB would be appealing to some buyers. I can see the logic that it would...but I don't think the sales of two PB models would come close to supporting the additional cost and manufacturing complexities of having two 'versions' of the Powerboost.

Jack
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