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Hotspot always on, NO ICE - solution

fwunder

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It has really bugged me why the WiFi hotspot seemingly required so much juice. In generator mode with no load the ICE would fire up for a minute or three every 30 minutes or so. Very frugal, but nevertheless, seemed odd to me that the modem would require that much power.

For a couple of reasons I would like to use the truck WiFi hotspot or the generator mode independently or together.

As a test two days ago I used the hotspot in generator mode with no load for eight hours. Via Ford Pass I started with 260 miles to empty and ended with 248 miles to empty - 12 miles or roughly 1/2 gallon. As predicted the ICE did fire up about every 1/2 hour for a minute or three. The general consensus seems to be ( correctly ) that the ICE cycle is triggered by the SOC of the HV battery. With no load ( HV generator ) why is ICE running cyclically? My simple untrained compost toilet observation says that it is charging the 12 volt battery OR it is charging the HV battery which, in turn, is charging the 12 volt battery! Bingo!

So, if my supposition is correct, we simply need to feed electrons to the 12 volt battery from an external source to let the HV charging system know it's not needed and thus keep the ICE from starting! Pretty tricky. That's what I tried today.

I used one of my 100 watt portable solar panels I use for camping and charging electric fence battery to feed truck 12 volt battery for six hours ( sunny ) today while keeping the WiFi modem active steaming live video to a laptop. I started with 208 miles to empty and ended six hours later with 208 miles to empty. Eureka!

Sorry to sound so excited. To me this is kinda a big deal. It means I can use the truck WiFi hotspot indefinitely as long as I can supply charging voltage to 12v battery. That could be solar, RV batteries ( back fed at night? ) or trickle charger from RV park pedestal or @ home when the damn cable goes out again.

The pictures below will show what I did today. One more thing...I lied. I did notice ICE fire up twice, inexplicably. Stayed on for less than a minute and did not effect miles to empty. Hmmm. Perhaps truck was phoning home trying to ask Ford engineer what was happening to its brain? You guys are lots smarter than me. Perhaps you can explain.

Some reference. The charge controller seemed to consistently supply 1-2 amps to battery @ 13.2-14.4 volts. The panel voltage was as high as 18.9 volts - sunny day. The truck battery measured 12.4 volts at the beginning of the test so the charge controller cranked for a bit. Not sure what the SOC chart for the Ford AGM is. I did select sealed lead acid ( agm ) as the battery in the Renology charge controller.

Ford F-150 Hotspot always on, NO ICE - solution IMG_6437


Ford F-150 Hotspot always on, NO ICE - solution IMG_6439


Ford F-150 Hotspot always on, NO ICE - solution IMG_6446
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Snakebitten

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There's more than just the modem alive during "Ready" state of a Powerboost.
My truck has 42 modules.
They are all awake during "Ready" state.

I'm not surprised though that if the 12V system has a supplemental supply of current, the draw on the DC/DC converter (digital alternator), and thus the HV battery, would be reduced.

Cool experiment. :)
 
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fwunder

fwunder

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Thanks SB! Really got me wondering if I could back feed from my two 6 volt GCs to truck at night if I wanted to use hotspot without ICE. Maybe even through seven pin, although I have made up so much cable and anderson connectors I could go directly from 6v bank to truck 12 volt battery no problem. Seems all it needs 1-2 amps to keep minimal 12v systems alive without firing ICE?
 

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The biggest obstacle is that the Telematics control module, the Gateway module, and probably the APIM have to be awake for the Hotspot to function.

That would require at least accessory mode, and even that would wake up the vast majority of the trucks various bus networks.

If I am sitting in my truck in Ready mode, Park, no foot on the brakes, and have nothing on but the Sync and HVAC, the HV battery current PID will be from 1-1.5 amps at 285V feeding the 12V system. That's 285-427 watts?

That's 20-35 amps at 12V?
(Although it's actually a little less amps because it's often 14V rather than 12)

How much can solar provide to the 12V system?

If it's true that an external 12V source can automatically reduce the current being drawn from the DC/DC converter, (that's amazing if so) then wouldn't it be feasible to just add a 12V powerpac to the 12V system that is adequate for powering the truck for the required amount of time? You'd have your Hotspot and keep the ICE off as well.
 

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I'm going to go hook up the 12V PowerSupply/charger to my Powerboost and look at the PIDs to see if it supplements/reduces the DC/DC converter draw on the Hybrid battery.

I don't know why I never thought of even trying.
 

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fwunder

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The biggest obstacle is that the Telematics control module, the Gateway module, and probably the APIM have to be awake for the Hotspot to function.

That would require at least accessory mode, and even that would wake up the vast majority of the trucks various bus networks.

If I am sitting in my truck in Ready mode, Park, no foot on the brakes, and have nothing on but the Sync and HVAC, the HV battery current PID will be from 1-1.5 amps at 285V feeding the 12V system. That's 285-427 watts?

That's 20-35 amps at 12V?
(Although it's actually a little less amps because it's often 14V rather than 12)

How much can solar provide to the 12V system?

If it's true that an external 12V source can automatically reduce the current being drawn from the DC/DC converter, (that's amazing if so) then wouldn't it be feasible to just add a 12V powerpac to the 12V system that is adequate for powering the truck for the required amount of time? You'd have your Hotspot and keep the ICE off as well.
That's exactly what I was thinking and thought that's what I demonstrated. Perhaps not? I could hook up my Noco charger and demonstrate the same. It would follow that a Goal Zero would function the same?
 

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I'm normally optimistic, but in this case I'm struggling a bit because it's too easy. 😳🤣
 
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fwunder

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Prove me wrong. If anybody can do it, you can! :LOL:

Hold my beer.....😀
 

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Is there a reason why you hooked the ground to the post side of the battery monitor?
 

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Rats!

For testing purposes I first turned the truck on in accessory mode.

I have everything off that can be turned off.
What I am looking at primarily is any draw on the Hybrid battery, because it's SOC is the trigger for starting the ICE.

Below you will see that the lowest draw I can get is .9A/284V
Which is supplying 19A/12.8V to the LV side of the truck.
That's 255.6 watts in
243.2 watts out
95% efficiency

Ford F-150 Hotspot always on, NO ICE - solution Screenshot_20230414_181341


Then I started the truck (Ready mode)
Still with everything turned off possible.
The draw increased to 1.6A/284V supplying 30A/14.5V

That's 454.4 watts in
435 watts out
95% efficiency

Ford F-150 Hotspot always on, NO ICE - solution Screenshot_20230414_181437


So then I shut the truck off and connected a PowerSupply to the 12V battery outside the BMS sensor so the truck would SEE the external supplied current.
I then turned the truck on in accessory mode.
Big drop in draw from Hybrid battery.
Like an 80% drop!

Draw =
.2A/284V into DC/DC converter
4A/12.8V out to the 12V system
That's
56.8 watts in
51 watts out
But interestingly a drop to 90% efficiency. There's some loss going on in the converter with such a robust 12V external current supply? (I wish I better understood electronics)

Ford F-150 Hotspot always on, NO ICE - solution Screenshot_20230414_181821


So, although I was a little disappointed that the external power supply didn't completely eliminate the Hybrid battery contribution to the DC/DC converter, it did reduce it by ~80%!
It would take a very long time to trigger the ICE to replenish the Hybrid battery if the drawdown was limited to .2A with the truck in Ready mode.

That would be an 800% drop in current depletion.
30 minutes between ICE would be 4 hours! (would the tent sleepers tolerate a single charge event overnight?)

Alas, I started the truck. Ready mode.
PowerSupply still connected:

Bummer!
It's as if the external power supply had no affect.
1.7A/283V into DC/DC converter
30A/14V out
Almost identical to Ready mode no external PowerSupply.
Almost, because the Amps out increased from 1.6 to 1.7
481 watts in
435 out
Why not EXACTLY the same as before?
Because, the power supply still reduced the efficiency to 90%, just as it did in accessory mode.

Ford F-150 Hotspot always on, NO ICE - solution Screenshot_20230414_182206


Dang.
There's something about the truck being completely awake (all modules at play), compared to accessory mode, that completely ignores the contribution of the external power supply. There's zero reduction on the draw of the Hybrid battery.

But in an effort to finish the post on a high note regarding using the Hotspot in the truck without triggering an ICE event........

You could put the truck in accessory mode and connect a sufficient external source for current, and NOT worry about the ICE coming on, or depleting the 12V battery.
But you would definitely want to monitor the Hybrid battery SOC to make sure that you shut everything off before you drain the HV SOC below the high 30%. Any lower than that and you risk throwing codes and the truck scaring you with the "Service Truck Immediately" Dash alerts.

Tomorrow I could test and see how long you could go in accessory mode. But with rounded math it would be about 4 hours to drop from 63% SOC to 43% SOC.
 

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@Snakebitten fully charge the 12v system and then play with it. With the LFP battery connected, I've found the truck to basically not turn on 12v generation at all instead eating the LFP's charge. Now I watched that via the LFP's BMS, not actually connected to the truck. I did however purchase a wireless OBD monitor, but have yet to put it into practice. Not sure if in generation mode something is different. I'll have to take another look at the TCU, but either it or both TCU GWM have wakeup wires. It may be possible to get the TCU to turn on its hotspot functionality with a wire interception.

There's going to be some HVB drain as the inverters and DCDC are 'on' via that voltage -- but if it's 4 hours between recharges that's a pretty decent tradeoff if it's required. It's too bad the DC/DC isn't bidirectional able to take advantage of the 12v system being charged if for nothing else but to keep it away from that 35% threshold.

As for feeding the 12v system, if there's a nice high AGM float voltage present and the truck sees the 12vs are charged, it may prevent the DC/DC from doing anything as I've seen with the LFP. It may still be alive, but using no HV.
 

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@Snakebitten

There's going to be some HVB drain as the inverters and DCDC are 'on' via that voltage -- but if it's 4 hours between recharges that's a pretty decent tradeoff if it's required. It's too bad the DC/DC isn't bidirectional able to take advantage of the 12v system being charged if for nothing else but to keep it away from that 35% threshold.

As for feeding the 12v system, if there's a nice high AGM float voltage present and the truck sees the 12vs are charged, it may prevent the DC/DC from doing anything as I've seen with the LFP. It may still be alive, but using no HV.
Glad you jumped in.

Bi-directional DC/DC converter would be awesome in the particular use case (F150 WiFi Hotspot) being discussed. But I kinda can understand why Ford didn't concern themselves with that. There's no native use/purpose for the 12V battery to charge the Hybrid battery.

What do you think is so different about accessory mode that the Hybrid battery (and DC/DC converter) is obviously reduce-burdened by the external current supply? Yet in Ready (running) mode, that same external current supply is of no help to the Hybrid battery?

Isn't the truck limited by some kind of timer in accessory mode? I can't remember.

And come to think about it, I'm a little surprised Ford enables the DC/DC converter in accessory mode. It leaves the Hybrid battery unprotected. If they turned it off, the Powerboost in accessory mode would be the same as an ICE truck is.
 
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fwunder

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SB, a couple of questions.

What do you mean by hooking up your power source "outside the BMS"? I just clipped solar controller to battery terminals.

In my unscientific test the truck was in ready mode, generator mode on. That doesn't seem to jive with your results.? --I was trying to simulate being in campground and simply throwing shore power breaker in TT leaving the truck in a no load generator mode with hotspot still on.

I should have taken notes but I did observe that during the first couple or several hours the controller reported battery voltage ( what the controller was feeding ) was consistently around 14.2 volts 1.2-1.8 amps. Later in the "test" battery voltage dropped to around 13.2 volts. The panel I used is very efficient on a bright sunny day like yesterday I have measured very close to 100 watts out if needed. I have another 200 watt suitcase that is also very efficient.

It's kind of funny - before I got the PB I still carried around my Honda EU2200i even though I did install a 1500 watt inverter in the TT. Not for the soft start AC, but rather for the hair dryer my wife prefers to use! :rolleyes:
 

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If you connect directly to the negative post on the 12V battery, the battery management system (BMS) doesn't/can't "account for" the KW that were added to the battery.

It's a very sophisticated BMS, although there are plenty of questions about the logic that Ford is using. And a LOT of complaints about the charging logic that is hellbent keeping the AGM battery at a lower SOC than most would like.

Note that you saw a drop from 14.2V to 13.2
The BMS will lower the V more aggressively than many feel it should, which seems to inhibit the battery from being kept at a higher, say 85-90% SOC.

I digress.....

If you hook the negative terminal of your external power source "behind" the BMS sensor, then the BMS logic is accounting for that current.

Your owners manual even instructs to do so.
Point #1 or #2 is preferred.
I use #1 because it's easy to get the clamp on.

Ford F-150 Hotspot always on, NO ICE - solution Screenshot_20230310_224955_OneDrive


The image above is a little misleading because it doesn't have depth at the BMS sensor

Here's a better view:
The top red arrow is the sensor.
The bottom red arrow reveals that the negative battery post is connected on the underside of the sensor.
So you could connect your external power source to the blue area and it would be accounted for by the BMS sensor.

Ford F-150 Hotspot always on, NO ICE - solution 20230415_080841
 

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If you saw the wire that I have attached under the nut of the BMS sensor above, and wondered??? 😁

It's my Bluetooth battery voltage monitor.

Ford F-150 Hotspot always on, NO ICE - solution 20230415_082317


It allows for using a smartphone app and monitoring the 12V battery without waking up a sleeping truck.

And it logs 24/7 any battery fluctuations. You can SEE an OTA update! :)
And it's draw/impact on the 12V system.

You can view the last 7 days.

Here is what I am getting this moment sipping coffee in the RV

Ford F-150 Hotspot always on, NO ICE - solution Screenshot_20230415_082814_Battery Monitor


Note that 12.62V is much higher than Ford's BMS would keep this battery at. It's only at 12.62 because of the experiment we were running regarding this thread. I left the charger on it last night, and it finished a "smart charge" procedure and then turned off.

Here's the log from late yesterday
Around 6pm I went and got the truck out of the barn to do the testing.
Shut the truck off and did the accessory mode test first. That's the big drop you see for several minutes.
Then hooked up the external power source. Note the ramp up of V in the log.
The rest of the curve was just me leaving the smart charger and allowing it to finish it's AGM charge procedure.

Ford F-150 Hotspot always on, NO ICE - solution Screenshot_20230415_083215_Battery Monitor
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