Fuel consumption when using Pro Power

[Snakebitten]

I really don't understand the ProPower logic. SB, your data points are great help, but I still don't get it.

Today, I needed to buck and stack a few logs for next winter. Knowing it was going to be an all day project, I decided to do a little test. I put the truck in generator mode ( see it in pic below ) and made sure something was hooked up to truck WiFi. No load.

I started @ exactly 9:48 and 260 miles to empty and finished ( including cutting lawn and shower - TMI ) @ 5:48 and 248 miles to empty. 12 miles or roughly 1/2 gallon.

So, why is ICE even coming on at all? I can't imagine the modem is using much. When I ran my house for 12 hours, I used 28 miles. I just don't understand the logic.

SB, you have a lot more experience than me with your RV. Coming into camping season, I was really wondering if I could leave truck in generator mode all night with no load ( turn off 30 amp breaker ) and keep truck WiFi active. Is that still honoring "generator hours"? Most campgrounds we visit are well spaced and prolly no one would notice if ICE came on or not, but I'm just curious what your experiences are.

It's not because there's any significant draw that the Powerboost Hybrid Battery needs a charge from ICE, rather it's the teeny tiny size of that battery, by Hybrid standards.

It's such a dichotomy to look at a Nissan Leaf, and then a 157" CrewCab F150, and then try to imagine that the 10 year old little EV has a battery 41X, that's FORTY ONE TIMES the size of the Powerboost.

If the Powerboost just had 1/2 the battery the leaf had, it could go 20X's longer between ICE-charge events. Instead of say every ~30 minutes (low load), it could go 10 hours.

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[Gros Ventre]

I've remarked elsewhere on the size of the Powerboost's battery... Its relatively small even compared to the battery in the Escpae Hybrid. The issue of the BISG vs the DC-DC converter is a matter of programming. The excitation provided to the BISG determines its output. Tweak it up and it carries the load, tweak it down and the DC-DC converter picks up the load... We'll just have to know the programming... I suspect that Ford selected the 43% to 63% range of state of charge on its hybrid battery for two reasons: 1st it is relatively linear and the programming is simplified and 2nd it sets bounds of the battery operations that will extend the battery life time (remember they want that battery to go to 8 years). Thus I infer that the DC-DC converter has a ramped output dependent on terminal voltage. From this I infer that the ICE on-ICE off cycle is dependent on that linear region in the battery operation. Then, the ICE kicks on and recharges the battery. It recharges the Hybrid battery via the three phase motor-generator in the transmission. At the same time the 12VDC system is set up to recharge the 12VDC battery for the start event. Does it do it by the DC-DC converter or the BISG? Well, what's the excitation programmed into the system for the BISG...

 

[Snakebitten]

I've never seen any evidence that the DC/DC converter output was in any significant way reduced when ICE kicked in.
But you can easily see DC/DC converter output increase with almost any load you put on the 12V system. (HVAC, heated steering wheel, heated seat, headlights....... If you turn any one of them on, the DC/DC converter current increases.

I wish there was just one PID, of the 1500 I have looked through, that would be related to the BISG as a source of current.

 

[oneinch]

I camped in my truck a while back using a Kodiak truck bed tent. Cold night. I had an electric blanket (100 watts) and a space heater (1500 watts) plugged in. The blanket was always on high, but it would cycle off and on. With the heater on high the battery lasted about 9½ minutes and would recharge in a little over I minute. I reckon the truck ran for a total of 30-40 minutes at 1200 rpm. I dialed back the heater some to double the battery time. Regardless of what setting the blanket and heater were set to, when on they were on full bore. Settings only changed the cycle time, not the watts used. Anyhow, my fuel tank level at bedtime was 87%. In the morning it was 83%. I used Torque Pro to read the ECU. The percentages used will probably change depending on the starting level. I haven't a clue how much gas I used.

What did I learn? Using a heater is terribly inefficient. The electric blanket worked great applying heat directly to my body. From an earlier test I did the battery lasted 40-45 minutes at 100 watts. I wish you could adjust how much battery you can use and how much you can charge it. My truck would only let me use 20-25% of the battery. This makes the 1.5 kWh battery a rather puny 375 Wh battery. The Powerboost sorely needs a larger capacity battery and a more powerful motor. I'm not so sure using the truck as an overnight generator in what should be a quiet space like a tenting campground is a good idea. When charging it can be pretty loud. Turning off ECO IDLE may help with this problem. I wasn't close to anybody and parked near anybody, plus it was kinda windy. I gotta believe powering a RV with AC the truck is going to run quite a bit, if not constantly.

 

[Gros Ventre]

I've never seen any evidence that the DC/DC converter output was in any significant way reduced when ICE kicked in.
But you can easily see DC/DC converter output increase with almost any load you put on the 12V system. (HVAC, heated steering wheel, heated seat, headlights....... If you turn any one of them on, the DC/DC converter current increases.

I wish there was just one PID, of the 1500 I have looked through, that would be related to the BISG as a source of current.

Well, I believe the DC-DC converter has a programmed ramp. As 12VDC drops it's output increases and as voltage rises output decreases. The truck then controls 12VDC Battery state of charge via the excitation sent to the BISG. My intincts tell me that one of the two (BISG & DC-DC converter) has an active control circuit while the other is simply a ramp. Having two active controllers in parallel is a ticket to serious problems since they can end up fighting each other in some situations.

 

[Snakebitten]

If a modern 30Amp RV isn't using the Air Conditioner or a space heater, it's a much lower draw than your night in the tent was.

In generator mode, the Powerboost allows you to charge the Hybrid battery to 63% SOC
It kicks back on at 43% SOC

So yea, as you mentioned, we get access to about 20% of that little battery.

 

[Gros Ventre]

If a modern 30Amp RV isn't using the Air Conditioner or a space heater, it's a much lower draw than your night in the tent was.

In generator mode, the Powerboost allows you to charge the Hybrid battery to 63% SOC
It kicks back on at 43% SOC

So yea, as you mentioned, we get access to about 20% of that little battery.

Remember, Ford's goal is to have that battery reach 8 years without Ford having to replace it on their nickel...

 

[HammaMan]

But you can verify the whether the ICE is on or the ICE is off, the DC/DC converter is ALWAYS providing current to the 12V system.

So if what Ford calls on the Powerboost a BISG (Belt integrated Starter Generator) IS actually a generator, it doesn't ever appear to carry the burden of supplying 12V current on its lone.

So far I've only found your favorite initialism (BISG) to engage under acceleration. Not really sure of the logic of it because the draw is draw no matter if it's coming from the belt or the HVB (and thus not going into the e-motor). Maybe it's got slightly less loss than the DC/DC by being a 12v native generator (however it works), due to the drag its belt pulley and bearings already have -- as in it generating is fractionally more effective. Dunno -- it'd be nice to actually have some of the exact logic / variables controlling it. Have you seen anything in the WSM as to its claims regarding operation?

This makes the 1.5 kWh battery a rather puny 375 Wh battery. The Powerboost sorely needs a larger capacity battery and a more powerful motor. I'm not so sure using the truck as an overnight generator in what should be a quiet space like a tenting campground is a good idea.

Or perhaps in certain generation conditions they could open to at least a 15-85% range. Those are safe and long-lasting variables so long as the conditions are right. At least allow 1kWh of energy to be utilized. That'd be a bit better on the usage, but then possibly you end up with a 2 minute run every 30 minutes. Might not be enough to keep the engine warm and thus running into longevity issues?

 

[DT444T]

I camped in my truck a while back using a Kodiak truck bed tent. Cold night. I had an electric blanket (100 watts) and a space heater (1500 watts) plugged in. The blanket was always on high, but it would cycle off and on. With the heater on high the battery lasted about 9½ minutes and would recharge in a little over I minute. I reckon the truck ran for a total of 30-40 minutes at 1200 rpm. I dialed back the heater some to double the battery time. Regardless of what setting the blanket and heater were set to, when on they were on full bore. Settings only changed the cycle time, not the watts used. Anyhow, my fuel tank level at bedtime was 87%. In the morning it was 83%. I used Torque Pro to read the ECU. The percentages used will probably change depending on the starting level. I haven't a clue how much gas I used.

What did I learn? Using a heater is terribly inefficient. The electric blanket worked great applying heat directly to my body. From an earlier test I did the battery lasted 40-45 minutes at 100 watts. I wish you could adjust how much battery you can use and how much you can charge it. My truck would only let me use 20-25% of the battery. This makes the 1.5 kWh battery a rather puny 375 Wh battery. The Powerboost sorely needs a larger capacity battery and a more powerful motor. I'm not so sure using the truck as an overnight generator in what should be a quiet space like a tenting campground is a good idea. When charging it can be pretty loud. Turning off ECO IDLE may help with this problem. I wasn't close to anybody and parked near anybody, plus it was kinda windy. I gotta believe powering a RV with AC the truck is going to run quite a bit, if not constantly.

I've got a cargo trailer with no insulation that I put a lofted bed into. I ran an extension cord to a Queen size heated blanket and under an opened-up-sleeping-bag inside the trailer at 30° OAT. The blanket was set to 2 out of 10 and I was snug as a bug. Used 40w.

Heated blanket is FAR superior to the space heater. I've even considered getting one of those big ass battery packs to keep plugged in to the truck while I drive so that I don't HAVE to run PPOB overnight.

 

[oneinch]

"...big ass battery packs..."

I thought about this too. For running an electric blanket you might get an entire night's use. Recharge it in daytime when noise won't be as big an issue.

 

[DT444T]

I thought about this too. For running an electric blanket you might get an entire night's use. Recharge it in daytime when noise won't be as big an issue.

Exactly. You're still making good use of the PPOB, just more efficiently. Just a little harder on the wallet but you get another toy out of it. Plus, you can keep the heat from the battery pack as it discharges, too!

 

[EricR]

It's not because there's any significant draw that the Powerboost Hybrid Battery needs a charge from ICE, rather it's the teeny tiny size of that battery, by Hybrid standards.

It's such a dichotomy to look at a Nissan Leaf, and then a 157" CrewCab F150, and then try to imagine that the 10 year old little EV has a battery 41X, that's FORTY ONE TIMES the size of the Powerboost.

If the Powerboost just had 1/2 the battery the leaf had, it could go 20X's longer between ICE-charge events. Instead of say every ~30 minutes (low load), it could go 10 hours.

???

The Leaf is an EV. It's almost an apples to cats comparison.

It could go the other way just as well:

It's such a dichotomy to look at a 157" CrewCab F150, and then a Nissan Leaf and then try to imagine that these new high-tech F150s have a gas tank that is ERR<DivBy0> times the size of the Leaf.

If the Leaf just had 1/2 engine and 1/2 the gas tank the F150 has, it could go much further between battery-charge events. Instead of stopping every 100 miles for multiple hours to recharge, it could go 350‐450+ miles, refuel, and be back on the road in under 5 minutes.

 

[EricR]

Lol
I was trying not to draw eyerolls from those of you that have seen those screenshots ad nauseum.

I was (and am) actually quite serious!

That screenshot is some real sexy high tech eye-candy!

 

[fwunder]

So what determines ICE on/off cycles with ignition on, generator mode off? Say I want to only use truck WiFi only. Is it more efficient in idle mode ( disable 30 minute idle shutoff) rather than generator mode?

 

[Snakebitten]

???

The Leaf is an EV. It's almost an apples to cats comparison.

It could go the other way just as well:

It's such a dichotomy to look at a 157" CrewCab F150, and then a Nissan Leaf and then try to imagine that these new high-tech F150s have a gas tank that is ERR<DivBy0> times the size of the Leaf.

If the Leaf just had 1/2 engine and 1/2 the gas tank the F150 has, it could go much further between battery-charge events. Instead of stopping every 100 miles for multiple hours to recharge, it could go 350‐450+ miles, refuel, and be back on the road in under 5 minutes.

I knew I was risking the EV/Hybrid battery comparison, but a KWH is a KWH, so to speak.
I just couldn't resist the fact that little bitty 4 wheel sardine can from yesterdecade could hide a battery that dwarfs what Ford put in our Aircraft carrier trucks.

But OK, I'll go Hybrid/Hybrid

Ford builds another Twin Turbo Ecoboost Hybrid. It's the 3.0 Ecoboost, rather than the 3.5, but it gets a battery 9 times as many KWH as our Powerboost.

(Oh, and twice the electric motor too.
So.......
500 HP
630 Ftlbs)

Hey, I LOVE my Powerboost(s)!
I'm a hopeless ambassador of the platform. So my campaigning for some more battery is just me dreaming about the low hanging fruit that's become obvious after a couple of years messing with it.

There's some campground prowess that is there for the taking.
The fellas considering a nice additional KWH (battery) pack in the bed of the truck or the RV are really just doing what I would like Ford to do under the bed of the truck.

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