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For the shooters on the board: Take note of the new ATF proposed SBR rules

SumGuy

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Lots and lots of changes if you have any barrels less than 16”. Pistol braces are effectively banned, and transfers of SBRs is severely restricted.

basically, call your congressman, tomorrow.

YouTube link to lawyers take on the proposal:
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HammaMan

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Turning an AR receiver into an SBR has loads of benefits. It's just shitty they've once again been able to magically create a law in violation of the constitution. All gun laws need eliminated as they're in blatant violation of the constitution. The verbiage couldn't have been any more clear. Need real leaders with spines to step up and end the infringement on civil rights.

They're attacking the 1st (Fre Speech) like crazy too. Amazing the document that not only birthed the USG, but shackled it, is the same document these bureaucrats use as toilet paper. Each day the republic slips further from the grasp of The People. Sad to see -- it only leads to one option in the end....
 

Str8Shooter

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THE SECOND Amendment

“A well-regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.”
 

Scoop

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Turning an AR receiver into an SBR has loads of benefits.
Is this sarcasm? What BENEFITS are there in turning a pistol into an SBR? In no way does turning something that was once classified as nothing more than a standard handgun (no different than a Glock pistol or a S&W revolver) into an SBR have benefits.

Here are but a handful of disadvantages. Obviously, every state has it's own laws that may affect some of these, but generally speaking:

1. You can't carry a SBR concealed under a concealed carry license/law. This includes in a vehicle (the AR pistol is a very popular "truck gun").

2. You have to submit IDENTIFIABLE Information about the firearm to the BATFE (serial number, model, caliber, etc.) along with YOUR personal information (name, address, etc.). For handguns, the identifiable information for the firearm is ONLY recorded by the FFL who transferred the firearm and ONLY provided to the BATFE if a trace is performed or the FFL goes out of business. The only exception to this if for a multiple handgun purchase (more than two in five business days) or, in states that border Mexico, a multiple long gun purchase. You and your firearm are NOW in the ATF's database.

3. When transporting, you have to treat it as a long gun (cased & locked, in the trunk or furthest point from occupants, unloaded).

4. If you want to transport it over state lines, you have to ASK FOR PERMISSION to do so, and must do so IN ADVANCE. You complete ATF From 5320.20, submit it, then wait to get it back. This typically takes up to 30 days, but can take longer.

5. After their generous (yes, that was sarcasm) "grace period" of this (unconstitutional) ATF "rule change", any new 'pistols' that you want to build will require an ATF Form 1 + picture + fingerprints +$200 for the tax stamp + the wait to get the stamp back --- IF you get approved. If you want to buy a complete SBR, that's a Form 4.

6. It's now an NFA item, so unless someone is on your gun trust, you can't let anyone borrow it (like you can lend a handgun to someone else).

7. Selling NFA items is far more difficult than selling non-NFA items.

8. You have to have a copy of the tax stamp with the firearm anytime you are out and about with it.

I can't even fathom how MORE cumbersome, costly, erroneous, and unconstitutional GOVERNMENT OVERREACH would provide a BENEFIT to me by registering pistols as SBRs, but I'll go ahead and wait for you to respond.
 
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HammaMan

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Is this sarcasm? What BENEFITS are there in turning a pistol into an SBR? In no way does turning something that was once classified as nothing more than a standard handgun (no different than a Glock pistol or a S&W revolver) into an SBR have benefits.
Well an AR receiver is one of, if not the most universal platform. As I stated, converting an AR receiver to an SBR has loads of benefits. Perhaps not in the commie states. I carry an SBR ps90 w/ at least 2 50rnd mags on it where it's close at hand in a vehicle. It's got a suppressor in its small carry bag as well. I also have a 5.7 pistol for the same reason. AR style pistols w/ braces aren't very concealable.

As for those who have a brace and want to retain the pistol aspect, well remove the brace before this goes into effect It sucks your state's laws infringe on the constitution more than others, but as we've found over the last 3 years, you can just as easily choose another. Yours in particular is one I'd debate about visiting, but under no circumstances would I live there w/ its head tyrant.

My doctrine of self defense is different from others. I prefer to use what I call the red dawn approach, for a few reasons. An invading force knows the 4473s are a source of finding gun owners. Those who are looking to round up said tools will at first be smaller units with lighter armor. You should have the means of defeating the initial lighter armored units and move to a different position. There's only a few good options between walls and cameras, they should be able to be handled before they even realize their positions are known and the rounds are coming through the walls and their buddies armor. Faux cameras make for a great false sense of security -- as in a decoy camera makes them think they're safe from ambush, but they've just fallen into a purpose-built ruse.

High-content copper 3D printing filament has ~80%+ efficacy of purpose-made copper 'cones' when it comes to armor defeating FWIW. That's a whole other class of defensive means though. It's amazing to me that more people aren't familiar with E part in the extended ATF initialism.

There's much bigger problems coming in the next 2 years -- I hope you have a reliable source of food and power independent of 3rd party means. Things are going to get really awful, really fast.
 

Scoop

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@HammaMan, your response does NOT identify even a single benefit of converting a handgun (e.g., an AR-15 currently in a pistol configuration with a stabilizing brace or blade) into a short barreled rifle.

Not one.

Next, if you can carry an SBR concealed, then you can carry a handgun concealed - so making an handgun into an SBR provides ZERO benefit regarding CCW.

What it DOES do is require you have to ASK PERMISSION from the BATFE to transport it across state lines. Not so for a handgun.

The fact that a very limited few people can carry an SBR concealed is irrelevant, as MOST law-abiding citizens cannot, with or without a concealed carry permit.

I'll continue to wait for you to identify the "loads of benefits" of converting a handgun into an SBR.

You also avoided commenting on the other seven disadvantages that I posted.
 

HammaMan

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@HammaMan, your response does NOT identify even a single benefit of converting a handgun (e.g., an AR-15 currently in a pistol configuration with a stabilizing brace or blade) into a short barreled rifle.

Not one.

Next, if you can carry an SBR concealed, then you can carry a handgun concealed - so making an handgun into an SBR provides ZERO benefit regarding CCW.

What it DOES do is require you have to ASK PERMISSION from the BATFE to transport it across state lines. Not so for a handgun.

The fact that a very limited few people can carry an SBR concealed is irrelevant, as MOST law-abiding citizens cannot, with or without a concealed carry permit.

I'll continue to wait for you to identify the "loads of benefits" of converting a handgun into an SBR.

You also avoided commenting on the other seven disadvantages that I posted.
When you convert a receiver into an SBR it can be used however you want it to be. I didn't say convert a pistol receiver into an SBR -- I said receiver in general. SBRs are whatever you want them to be when converted. AR receivers are dirt cheap. You can finish one yourself and nobody's the wiser. You can still pull the brace off and have a shitty attempt at an SBR.

By the exact letter of the law, anything that attempts in any way to regulate arms in general, is a blatant violation of the constitution, and therefore null and void.

Furthermore, I know many LEOs and only 1 of them understands the laws regarding NFA as well as I do. Granted as a type 7 you end up knowing ATF agents too. What I don't know quite well is how to drive a boat. I couldn't tell you how many dozens of guns I've lost at sea. Maybe I'll learn one day.
 

Scoop

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You continue to go down the road of claiming that "... Turning an AR receiver into an SBR has loads of benefits ...", yet you (still) have yet to identify even one. Third time's a charm, perhaps?

If you actually are a federal firearms licensee as your last post appears to allude to, it is my professional opinion that, while you may very well have a license with your name on it, you clearly do not have a command or proper understanding of federal law pertaining to this subject matter. I say this because I (presumably also) am an FFL and it's my responsibility to know and follow federal and state firearms laws. Point being, there are plenty of states who restrict what most others do not.

So let's clarify some things here:

1. When you convert a receiver into an SBR it can be used however you want it to be.
Before I start, let me say that what I'm saying below is also predicated on whether not a particular STATE law does nor does not prohibit something. For example, SBRs are illegal in CA and I do not believe AR15 pistols are on the MA roster of approved firearms.

1. Technically, you REGISTER a non-NFA firearm with the BATFE as an NFA item. Converting a firearm between NFA and non-NFA status is the physical act of swapping components

2. If you purchase an incomplete AR lower receiver (e.g., stripped, partially assembled, or fully assembled but NOT part of a COMPLETE firearm) you can use it to build anything you want REGARDLESS of whether nor not you register and assemble it as an SBR. Build a rifle with it? Sure. Build a pistol with it? Sure. Build an SBR with it? Sure! It does NOT need to be registered as an SBR to legally build it into a complete firearm of any type, other than if you are building an SBR.

So if you think that's a "benefit" of registering a firearm as an SBR, you're sadly mistaken.

3. Federal law allows you to convert (yes, change configuration) of an AR lower receiver from a pistol configuration to a rifle configuration (back and forth as often as you like) so long as it was not FIRST assembled as a rifle. This means, if you purchase a complete AR rifle transferred as a 'Long gun', it can not legally be converted to a pistol. Ever. However, if the AR lower was FIRST configured as a PISTOL (whether you purchase it that way and it is transferred as a 'Handgun' OR it was purchased incomplete, transferred as 'Other firearm", and you FIRST built it as a pistol), you can convert it between a pistol and rifle as often as you want. NONE of this is predicated on whether or not it is registered as an NFA item or not.

It's easy to remember: "FIRST a rifle, ALWAYS a rifle." As convoluted as it may sound, that is federal law.

4. You do not register (or convert) an (incomplete) receiver into an SBR. The 'R' in SBR stands for rifle. In order to register an AR receiver as an SBR, you complete and submit ATF Form 5320.1 (aka Form 1) and pay the tax. Among other information you provide on the Form 1, you must identify the caliber, barrel length, and overall length of the RIFLE. An incomplete AR receiver does not HAVE a barrel and, therefore, has no specified caliber, barrel length or OAL. You must have or intend to have all components necessary to complete the build when you complete the Form 1. If you're simply making up values on the application, you're violating federal law (Title 18, U.S.C., Chapter 44,Title 26, U.S.C., Chapter 53) by submitting information that not 'true, accurate and complete' (reference the verbiage immediately above section 7 on the Form 1 - where you sign our name).

I didn't say convert a pistol receiver into an SBR -- I said receiver in general.
Again, you can NOT register an incomplete firearm (an AR receiver alone) as a SBR, as it does not have a barrel length, caliber or OAL to complete the Form 1. You register complete firearms as SBRs, not pieces of a firearm.

SBRs are whatever you want them to be when converted.
So are non-registered (non-NFA) receivers. See above. You can build WHATEVER the heck you want out of a stripped lower or a lower that's not yet part of a complete firearm. Registering it as a SBR allows you to do ONE thing only that you can't do with a non-NFA registered item: Configure it as an NFA item (e.g, SBR)

You can finish one yourself and nobody's the wiser.
Honestly, I've lost count.

You can still pull the brace off and have a shitty attempt at an SBR.
Incorrect. If you remove the stabilizing brace or blade, you now have (depending upon OAL) either a handgun (no stock) or a firearm (over 26" OAL).

Remember what 'R' stands for? In order for a firearm to be classified as a rifle (short barrel or long gun), it must be designed to be fired FROM THE SHOULDER, which means it MUST have a stock. If you remove the stock from a standard AR15 rifle, you no longer have a rifle - what you have is (then) technically classified as a firearm.

It would behoove you to do some research, bone up on federal (and likely, your state) laws, including the definitions.

By the exact letter of the law, anything that attempts in any way to regulate arms in general, is a blatant violation of the constitution, and therefore null and void.
On this point, we almost agree. It's not by letter of the (statutory) LAW that 'anything that attempts in any way to regulate arms in general' is a violation of the Constitution. It's by the exact letter of the CONSTITUTION (specifically, the BOR amendments) that make those attempts to regulate arms a violation of the Constitution.

Furthermore, I know many LEOs
So do I. Because I used to BE a LEO (~10 years).

and only 1 of them understands the laws regarding NFA as well as I do.
First, most LEOs are NOT gun nuts. They do their 2x annual range qualification and possess their firearms ONLY when on duty. So this is most certainly something we can agree on. However, your grasp of federal law regarding NFA firearms is, based on what you have posted thus far in this thread, is severely lacking.

What I don't know quite well is how to drive a boat. I couldn't tell you how many dozens of guns I've lost at sea. Maybe I'll learn one day.
Ask any gun aficionado who is very cognizant of his/her rights and agrees that the governments should not be regulating a God-given right protected by the 2nd Amendment, and they will tell you that they lost all their firearms last week in an unfortunate boating accident, too. :)

If you need any additional clarification on NFA of '34, GCA of '68, or federal firearm laws in general, I'm happy to oblige.

P.S. - Your bizarre ramblings about red dawn and armor defeating ammunition is irrelevant to the topic of AR-15 stabilizing braces and SBRs, so you're welcome to keep those eccentric thoughts internal.

Stay safe and God bless.
 

Calson

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Heaven forbid I cannot take a lethal firearm to go to the store to buy groceries - how scary is that?

We have become a nation of frightened wimps who need guns to feel safe. Sad times indeed.
 

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UGADawg96

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This thread is boring, let's debate 9mm vs 45 next. ;) LOL j/k, I'll stick to the glock and xdtalk forums for that. :)
 
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SumGuy

SumGuy

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When you convert a receiver into an SBR it can be used however you want it to be. I didn't say convert a pistol receiver into an SBR -- I said receiver in general. SBRs are whatever you want them to be when converted. AR receivers are dirt cheap. You can finish one yourself and nobody's the wiser. You can still pull the brace off and have a shitty attempt at an SBR.

By the exact letter of the law, anything that attempts in any way to regulate arms in general, is a blatant violation of the constitution, and therefore null and void.

Furthermore, I know many LEOs and only 1 of them understands the laws regarding NFA as well as I do. Granted as a type 7 you end up knowing ATF agents too. What I don't know quite well is how to drive a boat. I couldn't tell you how many dozens of guns I've lost at sea. Maybe I'll learn one day.
You’re misunderstand the proposed rule change, at least as I understand it ANY gun that could generally be considered a rifle, is now a rifle, period. Taking the brace off doesn’t matter as the buffer tube and the entire assembly is generally defined as a rifle, so it is a rifle.
 

Paul Neubauer

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Heaven forbid I cannot take a lethal firearm to go to the store to buy groceries - how scary is that?

We have become a nation of frightened wimps who need guns to feel safe. Sad times indeed.
I personally feel safer knowing a good percentage of people in Texas are carrying a firearm when I am out buying groceries or at any other public place. A good guy with a gun isn't just going to protect themselves but also everyone around them from evil if the situation happened to occur.
 

Scoop

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Heaven forbid I cannot take a lethal firearm to go to the store to buy groceries - how scary is that?

We have become a nation of frightened wimps who need guns to feel safe. Sad times indeed.
Nah, you'd never need to protect yourself or your family from a violent criminal in a grocery store:

https://www.cnn.com/2022/11/22/us/chesapeake-virginia-walmart-shooting/index.html

https://www.foxnews.com/us/florida-publix-shoppers-store-fatal-shooting

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/deadly-shooting-breaks-out-inside-indiana-walmart/ar-AA16zHnZ

https://www.dallasnews.com/news/202...-in-el-paso-walmart-shooting-to-plead-guilty/

Unfortunately, I could go on and on ...

I guess you haven't turned on the news or been on any other websites lately, eh? Violent crime is up significantly across this nation, and half the politicians are advocating for the criminals.

Do you own a fire extinguisher? You must be a scared, frightened wimp?

It's not about being scared or paranoid. It's about being PREPARED. There is not enough law enforcement to STOP these shootings, and with the pro-criminal policies of politicians and DA's in the big cities as well as things like no-cash bail policies, it's clear that the government is NOT interested in the safety of the citizens.

Remember, when seconds count, the police are only minutes away.
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