Sponsored

For the "Crappy powerboost mpg people"

eharri3

Well-known member
First Name
Ed
Joined
Feb 23, 2023
Threads
7
Messages
133
Reaction score
170
Location
Pa
Vehicles
#20Fordf150
Occupation
Business
My wife was giving me crap about my driving while going somewhere today. So out of spite, as I'm prone to do when she goes overboard because I know she hates it as much as when I drive fast, I did 57 in a 55 coming home today and am at nearly 23 mpg highway 30 miles into a tank that started with some stop And go and 75 mph driving. I bet if I did A whole tank like that I could drag that up and be over 24 Mpg. These trucks will do what they're rated for, question is are you capable of doing your part to make it happen?
Sponsored

 

amschind

Well-known member
First Name
Adam
Joined
Apr 22, 2022
Threads
12
Messages
727
Reaction score
627
Location
Texas
Vehicles
'21 F150 SCrew 4x4 Powerboost
Occupation
Physician
I think that the Powerboost has a few design "trade-offs" that really hamper its ability to maximize mileage. As a "let's see if it works with off the shelf parts", it is a good effort.

1) The 10R80 is poorly optimized for the PB. The PB's torque curve needs a wider gear range than the stock transmission. This could've been mitigated by a shorter rear end except for...
2) The electric motor is too small. Ultimately, the better answer is a series hybrid (i.e. a Lightning chassis with a motor-generator like Nissan's E-power), but the powertrain balance between electric and ICE is far better on the Aviator's 3.0L/100 HP electric motor because it allows for more time in electric mode. The battery pack in the Aviator is a downside because at 13.6 kWh, it is almost 10x the size of the PB, and will be 7-8x the cost to replace.
3) Too much power. The 2.3L EB or 3.0L PS would've maximized the mileage for the truck far better than the 3.5L without limiting towing. I understand why they did it: the kiss of death for a truck is the "tree-hugger" label, but the truth is that less power (with the same tow ratings) and 30 MPG would've sold a lot of trucks. I can't use the fact that my truck has more power than everything but the Raptor R and the diesel Superduty trucks.
4) The combination of 1-3 means that there really isn't an ideal rear-end gear for the PB. Shorter means it doesn't run all electric at low throttle command, taller is worse for highway mileage. As before, one truck doesn't justify a re-design of the most complex and failure prone part of the truck, so a wide-ration PB specific 10R80 was never gonna happen.
5) The exhaust-cold loop heat exchanger was a bad idea. I get why they did it: nothing else is gonna heat the battery coolant up faster without cooking it, but a hot-loop to cold-loop water-to-water exchanger would've lasted 10x as long at the cost of a few Canucks being stuck with non-hybrid trucks during winter months on short trips. An electric-element heater driven off of the alternator would've also been a good idea, anything but finicky electronics and water bolted to the exhaust. I am actively looking to retrofit either system.

PS) Going back to #2, a series hybrid fixes a lot of those issues. You lose a few percent on highway mileage from the extra energy conversion, but you mostly gain that back from not having a transmission. The real benefit is a small turbocharged engine (like the 1.0L or 1.5L) running at its best efficiency point or off, which makes most of the issues that modern engines are built to address trivial.
 

Kanuck

Well-known member
First Name
Don
Joined
Aug 9, 2021
Threads
18
Messages
1,546
Reaction score
1,306
Location
Manitoba
Vehicles
21 XLT Scab 3.5 EB 6.5
Occupation
Retired Electrician
Eh, I like surprising my wife with wheel spin and a little bit of a drift. The last excursion into the mall entrance was fun. My shoulder still hurts. 🤷🏼‍♂️😂
Your lucky it is your shoulder and not your ribs or lower.......LOL
 
Last edited:

Snakebitten

Well-known member
First Name
Bruce
Joined
Jun 19, 2021
Threads
4
Messages
8,893
Reaction score
15,972
Location
Coastal Texas
Vehicles
2022 F150 KingRanch Powerboost
What's off-the-shelf about the Powerboost?
How much of the Hybrid components was already on the shelf at Ford?
I'm not aware of any of it being already produced.

And although it's technically a Hybrid, Ford didn't put a single insignia on it anywhere designating it as one. I don't think that's an oversight. It's intentional.

To me it's an incredibly unique vehicle that leverages Hybrid technology, but in a unique utilitarian pick-up truck kind of way. Sure, you DO get a potential 20-25% bump in fuel economy, but it's almost like that's just a side benefit to the overall intent of the engineering exercise. ProPower is its marketing claim to fame, whether that's what someone purchased it for or not.

If Ford was going to emphasize the traditional reason for purchasing "a Hybrid vehicle", the teeny tiny, by Hybrid standards, battery would have been bigger.

Don't get me wrong though. As much as I love ProPower (I am an RV full-timer) and the amazing ability to use the truck as an office for hours without ICE, I would love to see what a bigger battery could do for fuel economy. But as a long time Ecobooster, I already feel like I'm getting my cake and eating it too.

Truck is amazing. And a bargain in my book.
 

Sponsored

JJSnell

Well-known member
First Name
JJSnell
Joined
Feb 22, 2023
Threads
59
Messages
1,257
Reaction score
1,471
Location
CdA, ID
Vehicles
2022 F150 Platinum FX4 PB
Occupation
Owner, IT Consulting\MSP company.
So pardon me if this is already a 'known thing' but I was dinkin' around with the ECO mode today and noticed the truck takes on a drag or resistance feel when I switch to ECO. I can immediately feel it, I'm guessing it's to charge the battery? But if I'm doing 70mph the battery won't ever kick in (70 is limit in Idaho), unless I get a downhill... And I'm forced to step on the gas harder because of the resistance.
I am getting better freeway miles in standard mode than ECO. I got 20.2mpg today, half freeway, half windy country road.
 

HammaMan

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 7, 2022
Threads
72
Messages
4,204
Reaction score
4,351
Location
SE US
Vehicles
2022 302a PB, Mach E GTPE
1) The 10R80 is poorly optimized for the PB. The PB's torque curve needs a wider gear range than the stock transmission. This could've been mitigated by a shorter rear end except for...
2) The electric motor is too small. Ultimately, the better answer is a series hybrid (i.e. a Lightning chassis with a motor-generator like Nissan's E-power), but the powertrain balance between electric and ICE is far better on the Aviator's 3.0L/100 HP electric motor because it allows for more time in electric mode. The battery pack in the Aviator is a downside because at 13.6 kWh, it is almost 10x the size of the PB, and will be 7-8x the cost to replace.
The 10spd isn't the issue, it's the fact that it shifts as if the engine is on. If it held just a little bit longer in e-mode it wouldn't be that bad (perhaps a button the driver could hold for 'give it hell little guy', extending shifts and locking out the ICE). If you play around with it, it can be surprising. It's just not going to do adequate acceleration away from a stoplight short shifting like it does with a 6klb truck.
3) Too much power. The 2.3L EB or 3.0L PS would've maximized the mileage for the truck far better than the 3.5L without limiting towing. I understand why they did it: the kiss of death for a truck is the "tree-hugger" label, but the truth is that less power (with the same tow ratings) and 30 MPG would've sold a lot of trucks. I can't use the fact that my truck has more power than everything but the Raptor R and the diesel Superduty trucks.
No such thing. I want a PB-R with a 15-20kWh battery and a 5.0 sitting in front of the motor, with the ability to regen brake towing (aka enough cooling for the motor / battery to run 100% duty cycle). I might concede to the 3.0, but the electric motor needs to have at least the output of the MME's big motor (288/320).
4) The combination of 1-3 means that there really isn't an ideal rear-end gear for the PB. Shorter means it doesn't run all electric at low throttle command, taller is worse for highway mileage. As before, one truck doesn't justify a re-design of the most complex and failure prone part of the truck, so a wide-ration PB specific 10R80 was never gonna happen.
Gearing is fine - 3.73 is good ratio.
5) The exhaust-cold loop heat exchanger was a bad idea. I get why they did it: nothing else is gonna heat the battery coolant up faster without cooking it, but a hot-loop to cold-loop water-to-water exchanger would've lasted 10x as long at the cost of a few Canucks being stuck with non-hybrid trucks during winter months on short trips. An electric-element heater driven off of the alternator would've also been a good idea, anything but finicky electronics and water bolted to the exhaust. I am actively looking to retrofit either system.
The exhaust heat exchanger is actually a good idea -- it doesn't connect to the batt at all however, it heats the motor up faster as well as provides instant heat to the cab. Brilliant idea, execution needs work. I think a similar heater for EVs ala 'cold weather package' using a diesel heater would be something for the industry to consider. Can't beat dino juice's energy density.
PS) Going back to #2, a series hybrid fixes a lot of those issues. You lose a few percent on highway mileage from the extra energy conversion, but you mostly gain that back from not having a transmission. The real benefit is a small turbocharged engine (like the 1.0L or 1.5L) running at its best efficiency point or off, which makes most of the issues that modern engines are built to address trivial.
That's more of a full-on EV w/ APU. I think you've read some of my posts :ROFLMAO: (y)

What's off-the-shelf about the Powerboost?
How much of the Hybrid components was already on the shelf at Ford?
There's quite a few re-used parts from other hybrids in their lineup. BECM (and thus a battery arrangement from another), AC compressor, the motor and its inverter are in something else (I believe it's the explorer). Search parts from the PB that might be in another vehicle and hit the 'fits vehicles' tab or whatever it is.
 

HammaMan

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 7, 2022
Threads
72
Messages
4,204
Reaction score
4,351
Location
SE US
Vehicles
2022 302a PB, Mach E GTPE
So pardon me if this is already a 'known thing' but I was dinkin' around with the ECO mode today and noticed the truck takes on a drag or resistance feel when I switch to ECO. I can immediately feel it, I'm guessing it's to charge the battery? But if I'm doing 70mph the battery won't ever kick in (70 is limit in Idaho), unless I get a downhill... And I'm forced to step on the gas harder because of the resistance.
I am getting better freeway miles in standard mode than ECO. I got 20.2mpg today, half freeway, half windy country road.
It remaps the throttle curve -- as in, when in eco mode, you have to push the throttle further to get the same response as you would in normal. It's the opposite action of one of those pedal pusher devices. Other modes do the same thing as far as changing variables like throttle, shift points, gear hold, etc... The different modes are good for novice / ignorant drivers, but for those who pay attention to the vehicle and get used to a certain response for a certain input, it can throw you off your 'game'.
 

JJSnell

Well-known member
First Name
JJSnell
Joined
Feb 22, 2023
Threads
59
Messages
1,257
Reaction score
1,471
Location
CdA, ID
Vehicles
2022 F150 Platinum FX4 PB
Occupation
Owner, IT Consulting\MSP company.
I thought my Mustangs; Sport, Track and Drag mode were confusing...
Just give me my manual tranny back and I'll "ECO mode" myself to 30mpgs....
:)
 

HammaMan

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 7, 2022
Threads
72
Messages
4,204
Reaction score
4,351
Location
SE US
Vehicles
2022 302a PB, Mach E GTPE
The problem is that they (OEMs) for the most part do things half-assed. Take sport mode for instance -- WOT should be at an adjustable rate down to as little as 50% throttle push = 100% throttle. 2 simple settings, where is WOT on the throttle travel, and how aggressive do you want the curve. For instance 50% position could be 100% throttle, but the first ~20% or so could be 'normal' curve, but 21% to 50% translates into 21% to 100%. Anything after the 50% is just 'dead' pedal.

There's all sorts of room for people to customize things to their liking, especially with throttle, steering effort, shift speeds, etc... They think people are too stupid to even have the possibility to configure such things. Take the MME for instance. Some idiot decided to make the steering really stiff because dipshits on youtube doing reviews thinks it's "sporty feeling". No, it feels like shit. I want good response, not an arm workout. Why can't bad actors hax ford for us and get the code so we can do things right.

Ford F-150 For the "Crappy powerboost mpg people" 1679288576683
 

Sponsored


amschind

Well-known member
First Name
Adam
Joined
Apr 22, 2022
Threads
12
Messages
727
Reaction score
627
Location
Texas
Vehicles
'21 F150 SCrew 4x4 Powerboost
Occupation
Physician
The 10spd isn't the issue, it's the fact that it shifts as if the engine is on. If it held just a little bit longer in e-mode it wouldn't be that bad (perhaps a button the driver could hold for 'give it hell little guy', extending shifts and locking out the ICE). If you play around with it, it can be surprising. It's just not going to do adequate acceleration away from a stoplight short shifting like it does with a 6klb truck.

I think that we're talking about different priorities here. I'm prioritizing efficiency and adequate power and it sounds like you're more interested in acceleration and feel. My point is that wider gearing would improve efficiency. With regard to e-mode duration, I think that's an issue of the electric motor being relatively underpowered.

The exhaust heat exchanger is actually a good idea -- it doesn't connect to the batt at all however, it heats the motor up faster as well as provides instant heat to the cab.

My understanding is that the battery coolant loop connects to the battery radiator and the exhaust heat exchanger (and that the exhaust exchanger gas flow can be electronincally toggled on and off). I think that the motor coolant loop is essentially the same as the stock 3.5. I can only find crummy diagrams, so my understanding my be wrong.

ASSUMING THAT MY MENTAL DIAGRAM IS CORRECT (which may be inaccurate....I'd love to see a good diagram), my criticism is that they're putting liquid that needs to NEVER BOIL in direct proximity with exhaust gas that is above its boiling point AND doing so intermittently. The best way to destroy a boiler is to run the tubes dry. The second best way is to allow anything except water into the tubes. The combination of intermittent flow and relatively high temperatures leads to a situation in which the exhaust heat exchanger can mimic the failure modes of boiler tube: if the exhaust gate sticks open, it can boil the coolant within the tubes which can then allow the ethylene glycol to plate out. While I acknowledge the advantage of rapid heating has value, this heat exchanger is a failure prone way to do it. If the exhaust exchanger is in fact part of the high temperature loop, then the right answer was to redesign the exhaust manifolds to include water cooling. If the exhaust heat exchanger is part of the low temp loop, then the slower to heat up but FAR more reliable solution was a low-temp to high temp water to water heat exchanger loop with an electronically controlled bypass valve. That's an off the shelf part whose max temp is peak coolant temperature replacing a water to gas (i.e. much less efficient) heat exchanger whose peak temperature is exhaust gas.

There is a reason so many of them have failed in trucks that are 1-3 years old.



That's more of a full-on EV w/ APU. I think you've read some of my posts :ROFLMAO: (y)

Yeah, nobody can decide what to call these things. I think that series hybrid is the most technically correct term, but it's kind of like lecturing people on how an apple is a pome and not a fruit. I do agree that it's a better solution, and I''m frustrated at all of the foot dragging on the way there. The most frustrating part is that it's an easier and cheaper way to build a more reliable and more powerful vehicle.
 

HammaMan

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 7, 2022
Threads
72
Messages
4,204
Reaction score
4,351
Location
SE US
Vehicles
2022 302a PB, Mach E GTPE
The 10spd isn't the issue, it's the fact that it shifts as if the engine is on. If it held just a little bit longer in e-mode it wouldn't be that bad (perhaps a button the driver could hold for 'give it hell little guy', extending shifts and locking out the ICE). If you play around with it, it can be surprising. It's just not going to do adequate acceleration away from a stoplight short shifting like it does with a 6klb truck.

I think that we're talking about different priorities here. I'm prioritizing efficiency and adequate power and it sounds like you're more interested in acceleration and feel. My point is that wider gearing would improve efficiency. With regard to e-mode duration, I think that's an issue of the electric motor being relatively underpowered.

The exhaust heat exchanger is actually a good idea -- it doesn't connect to the batt at all however, it heats the motor up faster as well as provides instant heat to the cab.

My understanding is that the battery coolant loop connects to the battery radiator and the exhaust heat exchanger (and that the exhaust exchanger gas flow can be electronincally toggled on and off). I think that the motor coolant loop is essentially the same as the stock 3.5. I can only find crummy diagrams, so my understanding my be wrong.

ASSUMING THAT MY MENTAL DIAGRAM IS CORRECT (which may be inaccurate....I'd love to see a good diagram), my criticism is that they're putting liquid that needs to NEVER BOIL in direct proximity with exhaust gas that is above its boiling point AND doing so intermittently. The best way to destroy a boiler is to run the tubes dry. The second best way is to allow anything except water into the tubes. The combination of intermittent flow and relatively high temperatures leads to a situation in which the exhaust heat exchanger can mimic the failure modes of boiler tube: if the exhaust gate sticks open, it can boil the coolant within the tubes which can then allow the ethylene glycol to plate out. While I acknowledge the advantage of rapid heating has value, this heat exchanger is a failure prone way to do it. If the exhaust exchanger is in fact part of the high temperature loop, then the right answer was to redesign the exhaust manifolds to include water cooling. If the exhaust heat exchanger is part of the low temp loop, then the slower to heat up but FAR more reliable solution was a low-temp to high temp water to water heat exchanger loop with an electronically controlled bypass valve. That's an off the shelf part whose max temp is peak coolant temperature replacing a water to gas (i.e. much less efficient) heat exchanger whose peak temperature is exhaust gas.

There is a reason so many of them have failed in trucks that are 1-3 years old.



That's more of a full-on EV w/ APU. I think you've read some of my posts :ROFLMAO: (y)

Yeah, nobody can decide what to call these things. I think that series hybrid is the most technically correct term, but it's kind of like lecturing people on how an apple is a pome and not a fruit. I do agree that it's a better solution, and I''m frustrated at all of the foot dragging on the way there. The most frustrating part is that it's an easier and cheaper way to build a more reliable and more powerful vehicle.
The exhaust heat exchanger diverts exhaust, it doesn't keep it in constant contact (well it kind of does, but it doesn't) . I can assure you, that is 100% on the engine coolant loop. There is no battery heat. The battery's loop has batt, DC/DC inverter, and the 3 phase motor's inverter on it (as well as the AC heat exchanger to cool it when needed). The battery heats up by operation VERY quickly.

The exhaust heater device closes a door (red) to divert the exhaust through the heat exchanger. When it opens the exhaust bypasses it but isn't completely closed off from it -- but the door does block the exit so exhaust can't enter it. It's used to heat up the cabin and the ICE faster in cold weather operations primarily. Examine the unit to see it.

Ford F-150 For the "Crappy powerboost mpg people" 1680126041288


It probably provides a little extra heat to the cats with the added back pressure as well. The truck gets real quiet when this is in operation.
 

amschind

Well-known member
First Name
Adam
Joined
Apr 22, 2022
Threads
12
Messages
727
Reaction score
627
Location
Texas
Vehicles
'21 F150 SCrew 4x4 Powerboost
Occupation
Physician
Wow. Thanks for that explanation.....I had totally misunderstood it as a device to raise the battery temp above freezing so that it could charge in cold weather.

That raises the question: what happens if you just delete that whole part, connect the in/out coolant lines together and rig up a resistor spud to make the truck think that stuff is happening when it sends a signal to the unit? If the answer is "The engine coolant warms up slightly slower in cold temps", it's hard to see a downside to deleting it.
 

Snakebitten

Well-known member
First Name
Bruce
Joined
Jun 19, 2021
Threads
4
Messages
8,893
Reaction score
15,972
Location
Coastal Texas
Vehicles
2022 F150 KingRanch Powerboost
Wow. Thanks for that explanation.....I had totally misunderstood it as a device to raise the battery temp above freezing so that it could charge in cold weather.

That raises the question: what happens if you just delete that whole part, connect the in/out coolant lines together and rig up a resistor spud to make the truck think that stuff is happening when it sends a signal to the unit? If the answer is "The engine coolant warms up slightly slower in cold temps", it's hard to see a downside to deleting it.
You can just disconnect the 2 coolant lines and couple them together. Bypass the exchanger all together.

But you are going to set off codes from the temp sensor when the delta expected isn't there.

You also have a valve that the pcm is monitoring for open/close, so you can't just delete the midpipe and replace it with a traditional pipe.

Those darn monitored parameters. Lol
 

HammaMan

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 7, 2022
Threads
72
Messages
4,204
Reaction score
4,351
Location
SE US
Vehicles
2022 302a PB, Mach E GTPE
Wow. Thanks for that explanation.....I had totally misunderstood it as a device to raise the battery temp above freezing so that it could charge in cold weather.

That raises the question: what happens if you just delete that whole part, connect the in/out coolant lines together and rig up a resistor spud to make the truck think that stuff is happening when it sends a signal to the unit? If the answer is "The engine coolant warms up slightly slower in cold temps", it's hard to see a downside to deleting it.
Well it's the heater that shines. You've got heat in about 90 seconds from start blowing out of the vents. It's VERY effective. My MME has 7kW resistance heater (like a water heater) that it uses to create cabin heat. The F150 gets to temp faster. I'd have to do the math on the fuel draw, but needless to say that it uses about .75g / hr or so to idle so that'd make its heat output well over 60kW so it works quite well.

Next time you start the truck, crank the heat to high and see how fast it gets hot. You'll be surprised. It's one of the reasons that the heat wheel makes almost zero sense in a powerboost as its heat is going super fast.
Sponsored

 
 




Top