First of Many electric vehcile woe stories?

[Gros Ventre]

One thing ignored in electric vehicle discussions is the energy losses from generation to wheels. In a thermal plant, coal, natural gas, nucear about ll the energy you get from the consumed fuel is soewhere's around 40-50%. Can;t do any better. Then you have losses in converting that usable energy to electricity, then energy losses in transmission and finally energy lost in the electrical to chemical energy within the battery itself. For those who can make their own power from the sun or solar, That inproves things a bit.

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[amschind]

In many cases, all you do with an electric vehicle is move the tail pipe.

And that's a lot of the current argument in favor of BEVs: a 60% efficient GE combined cycle plant, minus 5% line losses, is still better than most ICE prime movers in road vehicles. If ICE prime movers in road vehicles get to 55% thermal efficiency, then it becomes very difficult to justify a BEV unless the owner is charging it with their own generation. A 4 stroke spark ignition gas engine isn't gonna get there, but 2 stroke compression ignition engines can with bottoming cycles.

The key enabler is all of this is an electric powertrain, or a series hybrid. If the engine RPM needs to match wheel RPM*a multiplier, then you have to optimize for a wide range of load/RPM conditions within emissions specs...it's mind-boggling how much success the auto industry has achieved in pursuit of that goal. However, once prime mover and wheel RPM are decoupled, the prime mover is free to run at its best efficiency point or be off. Nissan's e-Power drivetrain gets impressive efficiency benefits using a rack 4-stroke, but when you really leverage the tech with 2-strokes, bottoming cycles, and more exotic stuff like direct carbon fuel cells, then 100 MPG in a light passenger coupe is achievable.

Nice discussion... assumes that the world is always 80ºF...

I agree completely but once you start to add in temps <40F or >95F, the BEV starts to really suffer. I'm designing and building an all electric Airstream right now, and the part that makes it workable is the woodstove and the Powerboost generator. It took me, my brother and a buddy to haul that 15 kWh battery into the trailer; it's a pain to move, but the lbs/kWh is the lowest you can get.

 

[people-call-me-chris]

So let me get this right:

• He bought an electric vehicle and didn't research to know that in order to fill it up quickly, he needed a charger. (He could slow charge overnight with an extension cord)
• So he bought two chargers, one for his house and one for his office. Then whined about the cost of that decision.
• He then also whined about the cost of the installation of those chargers.
• Then he "planned" a 1400-mile road trip with a vehicle range of 300ish miles and complained that filling up his vehicle took time and money.
• Then when some public infrastructure was broken, and no one was there at the snap of his fingers to fix it, complained about that too?

What a privileged, incompetent, whiney child. I'm dumber for having read that article.

Love it. I had very similar thoughts when I skimmed this "article"... pretty stupid.

 

[Calson]

With an internal combustion engine less than 20% of the energy from a gallon of gasoline is utilized and the rest becomes heat and is why cooling systems are critical. The most efficient use of electricity is to power a motor and this has been known for more than a century. The first automobiles in the USA were electric powered ones.

I spent less than $700 to put a 240V charger in my garage and the EV is recharged from 11pm to 6am as needed. I only have 100amp service at my house and so I have always had to use high demand appliances with care. I would not use my 220V arc welder while my wife was using the electric stove top. Same applies to the car that is charging while we sleep and the only electrical usage is for a gas furnace fan to circulate air in the house.

Fox News is part of the disinformation campaign by the oil and fossil gas companies to put fear and uncertainty and doubt in the minds of car and truck buyers. At least in California their efforts have failed with more than 25% of new car registrations in 2022 being for EVs and more than 50% of Californians surveyed saying that a EV was a likely choice for their next automobile purchase.

It is not an all or nothing proposition. I own a gas powered pickup and an electric SUV. Each has their place and purpose which is not all that new a situation. Most of my life I have owned a pickup truck and also a 4-passenger sedan or SUV. Nursery plants and my dog would travel in the pickup that I could easily vacuum or hose out when dirty. People were transported in the passenger vehicle that was much easier to get into and back out.

 

[Samson16]

My perspective:

$55k for a Tesla Model Y Dual Motor Long Range is a freaking bargain. If you’re in the market for a sedan/SUV do not cross the 55k threshold without giving it serious consideration.

 

[ColoradoHunter]

One thing ignored in electric vehicle discussions is the energy losses from generation to wheels. In a thermal plant, coal, natural gas, nucear about ll the energy you get from the consumed fuel is soewhere's around 40-50%. Can;t do any better. Then you have losses in converting that usable energy to electricity, then energy losses in transmission and finally energy lost in the electrical to chemical energy within the battery itself. For those who can make their own power from the sun or solar, That inproves things a bit.

I remember that very discussion at my Vo-Tech H.S diesel mech course back in 1974 or 75. End result was consensus that the inefficiency in conversion and transmission of electricity would be the EV's downfall.

 

[tbinmd]

ICE vehicles are inefficient compared to EVs. Even more power is used to extract oil and refine it.

 

[Samson16]

Interesting conversation but it fails to see the forest for the trees. The efficiency of large power generators makes the cost to operate per kWh less for EVs.

 

[Samson16]

The ongoing maintenance costs for ICE vehicles are far higher than EVs as well. Range, time to charge, and availability of charging stations are the downsides not efficiency.

 

[ERM]

i have seen MANY MANY evs on the CHARGER at bucc ees ...many look like the drivers spent the night in the car... i bet lot lizards will pick up that and BOOM a new subsidiary of the old business will appear
i am thinking have a big bus with at least 6 beds in lock rooms like in airports, drive up and charge a fee for a BED to hmm sleep while you car charges ,
let see 6 ladies, one bouncer/driver and we are rolling in the dough

yes i was outside the box for a minute
my mind gets twisted every now and then

Love this!

I had reserved a Lightning, but the price was on a fast track sky high. Even with the 10k drop - still overpriced. Glad I passed, because I use the Tremor for trips which would have been a nightmare in the lightning. I have a family member that bought an EV6 and loved it. "Best car I have ever owned" Until he decided to take it on a "short" trip to southern Utah. His 300 mile range went to about 100+ miles on our 80MPH highways with the AC going... After 6+ stops to charge, and tons of wasted time he realized what we all know - These things are for driving around town, at least for now. MT just put out a piece on the IONIQ5 they have. Said that they were getting drops of up to 20% in range when they turned the AC on in hot weather on the highway. Last year, we put a deposit on one for my wife. By the time our number came up a few months ago, I had done all the research I needed to do, so we passed. We drove it and I will say, it was really nice, but I just don't think the battery tech is there yet. Solve that, and these EVs will be the future. Well, that and the charging needs to be quicker.... and maybe a few other things too....There is the Lucid with a claimed 500 mile range and a 6 figure price tag....nope. My guess is it's a range liar too, maybe to a lesser extent. Maybe.

 

[Snakebitten]

I tried, I promise, to just lurk this time.
The EV subject is..... Well, like an oil thread on steroids.

I LOVE the internal combustion engine. Always have. I think it started 60 something years ago on a Brigs&Stratton scooter in the neighbors back yard.
All these decades later and I have to have a barn to store a lifetime of accumulated machines powered by petrol.
6 or 7 motorcycles.
A couple of 2-seat manual transmission sports cars.
My beloved Powerboost. (the most fascinating petrol powered machine so far)

But my ~50 mile daily commute from the RV to the office? As well as my grocery and errand runs?

Charging infrastructure?
Follow that chord.
When I'm done for the day I just plug it in the the 110V outlet next to the mini fridge in the outdoor RV kitchen.

As HammaMan said, it made perfect sense as a second (or 4th) vehicle.

Super cheap to operate.
It was fully depreciated at ~5 years old and only lightly used. Pristine condition in/out. Quite the bargain.

I just skipped all the polarized aspects of the subject and grabbed one to have some fun. It's a hoot to scoot under sewing machine power.

 

[JExpedition07]

I think part of the California numbers are skewed by governmental overreach. When the state says gas vehicles will be banned in 7 years you are very less likely to purchase one out of fear you won’t be able to fuel it/ repair it in short time or face fines for ownership. We know that won’t happen, but when you put that law on the books it’s in the back of peoples minds. Definitely effects consumer behavior.

EV’s aren’t going anywhere, but a lot of people ignore their blatant shortcomings. Apartment dwellers simply can not utilize them effectively, and nobody has a solution in the works for that. Here in Buffalo, the range reduces by a lot since an EV has to “make“ heat. Heat is a free by-product of internal combustion and does not reduce range or require extra energy use to create on a gas engine. My buddies Tesla X range drops like a rock when it’s below 20 degrees out. Definitely an issue for long trips. If I worked an office job and didn’t drive random crazy miles the Lightning would be perfect. In fact for a second vehicle one would be nice regardless. My wish list would be a 400+ mile range though, the lightning just can’t do what I want yet.

That and I wish somebody came up with a battery swap out infrastructure for charging rather than the archaic system EV’s use now sitting at a charger. It’s pretty silly watching EV owners plug in and do it this way in 2023. I don’t have time for that. It should be standardized batteries, pull in the station, drop old discharged battery out and pop a new fully charged one in a drive off. 5 minutes. That would be a perfect world. That and a 400 mile range would make them a total replacement for gas vehicles. Fast “fuel ups” and widely available as well as good range between.

 

[Samson16]

Tesla was on to something when they tried to have charged up battery swap stations while out on the road but consumers weren't ready to let go of their well cared for(in their minds) expensive battery for God knows what at some Turnpike Tesla station.

Genius idea though. Like swapping a battery in a power tool baby.

 

[powerboatr]

I tried, I promise, to just lurk this time.
The EV subject is..... Well, like an oil thread on steroids.

I LOVE the internal combustion engine. Always have. I think it started 60 something years ago on a Brigs&Stratton scooter in the neighbors back yard.
All these decades later and I have to have a barn to store a lifetime of accumulated machines powered by petrol.
6 or 7 motorcycles.
A couple of 2-seat manual transmission sports cars.
My beloved Powerboost. (the most fascinating petrol powered machine so far)

But my ~50 mile daily commute from the RV to the office? As well as my grocery and errand runs?

Charging infrastructure?
Follow that chord.
When I'm done for the day I just plug it in the the 110V outlet next to the mini fridge in the outdoor RV kitchen.

As HammaMan said, it made perfect sense as a second (or 4th) vehicle.

Super cheap to operate.
It was fully depreciated at ~5 years old and only lightly used. Pristine condition in/out. Quite the bargain.

I just skipped all the polarized aspects of the subject and grabbed one to have some fun. It's a hoot to scoot under sewing machine power.

that is our thinking, for us an EV is good option. we drive less than 150 miles a week IN TOTAL
our cars get dusty fast..
i am still sitting on fuel from a fill up in july in the edge.

but long trips its the ICE powered vehicles, but having a golf cart disguised as a mach E or dare i say a NISSAN is a do able thing for us. based simply on your statements 50 mile round trip...


the quick change batteries is what tesla is or was planning to do with the 18 wheeler trucks
really good idea
truck pulls into the depot to unload and the bees swap out battery pack so its ready to go back on return leg as soon as truck is loaded with cargo. perfect

look at most distribution warehouse distances for wally world, lowes, home dept, amazon
most are within 300 miles of each other...or less
some out west are farther.

 

[Samson16]

You know it's funny. I'm halfway to curmudgeon myself, so it cracks me up to talk to old dudes who rail against EV's and then get back in their golf cart for the trip back to the house.

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