First of Many electric vehcile woe stories?

[Gros Ventre]

The issues that the feds are ignoring, and should be sorted out in the marketplace, are how batteries charge, the temperature effects on capacity, & the losses incurred as power demand increases. 1st-batteries charge either by constant voltage or constant current, 2nd-temperature reduces capacity significantly when you go below about 30ºF, 3rd-as the current demand from the battery doubles, the losses in available power quadruple. Out here in my neck of the woods winter temperatures get down to -30ºF routinely. That can mean very low capacity and self heating of the battery drains power. Constant voltage charging means an ever decreasing rate. Constant current needs work since in some chemistries damage can occur. There are some chargers out there that counter this. The loss of power from current draw is fact, all you can do is use conductors with minimum resistance. When you force the marketplace, some dumb things will be done.

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[powerboatr]

Not sure of any 80% rule for space in a Main Panel. I think the 80% rule is the amount of continuous load you can put on a circuit breaker. So for a 50A circuit breaker, one can only go up to a 40A EVSE (electric vehicle service equipment, usually just a on-off relay talking to the vehicle).

coop guy said you have to have 20% left over space for breakers added in..but i said i did and if i added another breaker then i would be at 90% full, so any more would require a new panel
its so freaking convoluted here, power feed cables are required to be buried in conduit...but they never check the stuff in the ground. and i know many that are only in conduit at the box and where it comes out of the ground to go in a building/house

we have power to spare. smart meter is reading 6.583 kw
this is 2 mini splits, 18k and 24k btu, four celing fans on med and two small box fans on low in garage. and one fridge running right now

i think the new updated stuff is what they push to get funding to run new lines and transformers.
it was all to be underground, and someone screwed the pooch back in 1999 and county didnt make them change it .

i have a call to make now on monday. not that i want to buy an EV but now my mind is rolling

 

[GoodSam]

smart meter is reading 6.583 kw

As for 250A service, at 240V, one would have 60kW available, but should only use 48kW (80%) of that, I think.

winter temperatures get down to -30ºF routinely

Dang, need a heated garage and I would expect less than 50% of quoted range for an EV running around in that temperature. Wait for Mr. Fusion to be available!

 

[HammaMan]

coop guy said you have to have 20% left over space for breakers added in..but i said i did and if i added another breaker then i would be at 90% full, so any more would require a new panel
its so freaking convoluted here, power feed cables are required to be buried in conduit...but they never check the stuff in the ground. and i know many that are only in conduit at the box and where it comes out of the ground to go in a building/house

we have power to spare. smart meter is reading 6.583 kw
this is 2 mini splits, 18k and 24k btu, four celing fans on med and two small box fans on low in garage. and one fridge running right now

i think the new updated stuff is what they push to get funding to run new lines and transformers.
it was all to be underground, and someone screwed the pooch back in 1999 and county didnt make them change it .

i have a call to make now on monday. not that i want to buy an EV but now my mind is rolling

The 80% rule is only for sustained loads. 7kW load average sounds right for what you've got. The whole leaving breaker spots 'blank' for future loads is hilarious, particularly when you're looking to do just that to power a EVSE. If they're claiming, which to be honest sounds like nonsense, that you must ALWAYS have 20% open for 'future loads', and here the future is, but 20% must remain -- um what?

If your entire heating / cooling is done via mini-split systems, you've got loads of excess. There's a difference between 'new construction' calculations and already having a functioning structure. If you have a smart meter, the poco already has your peak 30 minute demand window known. The only big current draws would be an oven (even then it's intermittent) or a central HVAC with a large resistance coil often referred to as "emergency" heat. Those things can be anywhere from 7-22kW.

Just tell your coop that you were calling electricians for an over the phone quote and they wanted to know what the size of your feeder wires are coming from the transformer

 

[HammaMan]

The reality of EV charging is so much more simple than is being led on to believe. You don't need a massive amount of spare capacity. Even with a 25 amp actual current draw and 12 hours a day of charging, that'd put 210 miles of range into my mach-e for instance. That's per day. I feel bad for anyone needing that -- that's over 50k miles per year and I'd hope you get paid by the mile. 90% of EV owners charge at home. The rest have some sort of apt or townhome where they can't install even a simple plug.

 

[powerboatr]

The 80% rule is only for sustained loads. 7kW load average sounds right for what you've got. The whole leaving breaker spots 'blank' for future loads is hilarious, particularly when you're looking to do just that to power a EVSE. If they're claiming, which to be honest sounds like nonsense, that you must ALWAYS have 20% open for 'future loads', and here the future is, but 20% must remain -- um what?

If your entire heating / cooling is done via mini-split systems, you've got loads of excess. There's a difference between 'new construction' calculations and already having a functioning structure. If you have a smart meter, the poco already has your peak 30 minute demand window known. The only big current draws would be an oven (even then it's intermittent) or a central HVAC with a large resistance coil often referred to as "emergency" heat. Those things can be anywhere from 7-22kW.

Just tell your coop that you were calling electricians for an over the phone quote and they wanted to know what the size of your feeder wires are coming from the transformer

OVEN he says
i have a convection/speedcookwith micro that draws a max of 15 amps at surge and runs on convection at 8 amps. Speed cook runs it up to 12 to 14 depending on which lamp and heater brick lights off, but those are momentary.

no central HVAC.
even the mini splits dont have heat strips, these just reverse flow to melt any ice on outside coils to melt it away
during the snowmeggadon earth ending event a few years ago
they were surrounded in snow and ice and still put our HEAT. only to shut down about once every 3 hrs to defrost outside, then boom they were at HOT again.. i love them

the 40 gallon water heater is our biggest energy eater and its only one once a day.
it heats up FAST and stays hot for days.

all the fridges run at less than 2 amps each and we have 2 .

and all three deep freezers are max 2 amps at full load each, but thats if they are hot and need to cool down. they cycle on once or twice every few days for about 10 minutes.
my tv in the mancave eats tons of power and creates lots of heat. its next to be replaced.

a mach E would serve us as long as we stay around here and can recharge at home
but the 2x a year we run to get groceries is a 300 mile round trip. (meats, and non perishables)

not to mention the recent upgrade in thermal efficiency for whole house
got 16 foot tall ceiling temps down to 68 to 72 now with 105 to 107 outside temps, with a metal r panel roof
that's a HUGE drop from 80 just a few weeks ago up there

what cracks me up
is my dealer has a nice grabber blue mach e gt
with SUMMER tires
its freaking north east texas...we dont need summer only tires and at 71k..it should have a set of all seasons in the frunk

 

[HammaMan]

OVEN he says
i have a convection/speedcookwith micro that draws a max of 15 amps at surge and runs on convection at 8 amps. Speed cook runs it up to 12 to 14 depending on which lamp and heater brick lights off, but those are momentary.

no central HVAC.
even the mini splits dont have heat strips, these just reverse flow to melt any ice on outside coils to melt it away
during the snowmeggadon earth ending event a few years ago
they were surrounded in snow and ice and still put our HEAT. only to shut down about once every 3 hrs to defrost outside, then boom they were at HOT again.. i love them

the 40 gallon water heater is our biggest energy eater and its only one once a day.
it heats up FAST and stays hot for days.

all the fridges run at less than 2 amps each and we have 2 .

and all three deep freezers are max 2 amps at full load each, but thats if they are hot and need to cool down. they cycle on once or twice every few days for about 10 minutes.
my tv in the mancave eats tons of power and creates lots of heat. its next to be replaced.

a mach E would serve us as long as we stay around here and can recharge at home
but the 2x a year we run to get groceries is a 300 mile round trip. (meats, and non perishables)

not to mention the recent upgrade in thermal efficiency for whole house
got 16 foot tall ceiling temps down to 68 to 72 now with 105 to 107 outside temps, with a metal r panel roof
that's a HUGE drop from 80 just a few weeks ago up there

It's rare that I'll take the MME on a route that needs charging. Most of the time it's opportunistic charging on the way due to having so much 'free' charging on my accounts. I'll stop for 20 minutes or so and walk around whatever store is near. Have you looked at the charging situation wherever your long trip takes you?

 

[powerboatr]

It's rare that I'll take the MME on a route that needs charging. Most of the time it's opportunistic charging on the way due to having so much 'free' charging on my accounts. I'll stop for 20 minutes or so and walk around whatever store is near. Have you looked at the charging situation wherever your long trip takes you?

yes we did
still gives me shivers at the locations
i need a small arsenal, except at bucc ees
i like it for our normal city trips...it would fit perfect in the once a week to the chiropractor and once a week to the grocery for fresh vittles
its actually a PERFECT fit
but 71k ..thats a high price for the EV imo
.i can get a King ranch explorer for 60k and go nearly 400 miles
with cooled seats ,

 

[amschind]

The larger issue with EVs is that they are cost-competitive on a $/mile basis with near future hybrid tech only if the owner is able to charge for the cost of amortized solar at home or is willing to bank on extremely good deals on electricity. My Powerboost is variably cost equivalent to slightly cheaper to drive across Texas than a Lightning, even if every gas station had 50 EV fast chargers that charged the truck as quickly as a bog-standard gas pump (i.e. 21,000 kWh/h*the vehicle efficiency, so between 5-10,500 kWh/h). That's getting 20 MPG on 87 at $3-$3.3/gal and paying $0.17/kWh at home or $0.4/kWh for fast charging. A 40 MPG F150 is possible right now, and Ford made a 72 MPG diesel hybrid in 2000. A 2-stroke compression ignition opposed piston series hybrid with an organic Rankine bottoming cycle (or the steam+organic Rankine that BMW built and called the "Turbosteamer") would break 80 MPG in a car format, and that's using early 1930s-2000s state of the art tech. Direct carbon fuel cells+25% efficient TEGs would push that number higher, but none of that tech is production ready yet so I'll exclude it from the current discussion.

A 40 MPG F150 costs $0.0825/mile at $3.3/gal. A Lightning costs $0.16/mile fast charging at $0.4/kWh, $0.06/mile level 2 charging at home at $0.15/kWh OR is just the amortized cost of your solar array. My buddy drives his Bolt around a big city and it is exceptionally cheap for him because he never had to fast charge even when he only had level 1; there is NO SCENARIO where EVs do not completely take over the short range urban use case, which is a huge portion of driving. The Aptera is just about the purest expression of the stuff that an EV does well leveraged while the stuff that EVs are not good at left out. The polar opposite is the Lightning, which uses outdated tech (giant motor/transaxles connected to the wheels via CV shafts) and plays hard into BEV weaknesses without getting access to the benefits except for instant torque. Despite that, the Lightning is a great truck for tradespeople with relatively light equipment who are operating in a limited area near a location where they can charge cheaply or folks who didn't really need a truck but like the look.

The biggest issue for wide adoption of EVs is that a guy with a 90 MPG hybrid is paying less per mile than a guy with a Bolt. The buzz around BEVs has stunted recognition of the revolution in ICE tech that has occurred over the past 10 years, wherein a bunch of old ideas finally started working really well on a consumer scale because computers got so good. That delta only gets wider as DCFCs and potentially efficient TEGs come online. Meanwhile, the cost per kWh will get worse under the strain of new demand.....from EVs. NONE of that applies to folks who a generating their own power from roof solar, in which case a BEV is nearly impossible to argue against.

Edit: applied correction for l/gal to charge rate twice.

 

[Gros Ventre]

The larger issue with EVs is that they are cost-competitive on a $/mile basis with near future hybrid tech only if the owner is able to charge for the cost of amortized solar at home or is willing to bank on extremely good deals on electricity. My Powerboost is variably cost equivalent to slightly cheaper to drive across Texas than a Lightning, even if every gas station had 50 EV fast chargers that charged the truck as quickly as a bog-standard gas pump (i.e. 21,000 kWh/h*the vehicle efficiency, so between 5-10,500 kWh/h). That's getting 20 MPG on 87 at $3-$3.3/gal and paying $0.17/kWh at home or $0.4/kWh for fast charging. A 40 MPG F150 is possible right now, and Ford made a 72 MPG diesel hybrid in 2000. A 2-stroke compression ignition opposed piston series hybrid with an organic Rankine bottoming cycle (or the steam+organic Rankine that BMW built and called the "Turbosteamer") would break 80 MPG in a car format, and that's using early 1930s-2000s state of the art tech. Direct carbon fuel cells+25% efficient TEGs would push that number higher, but none of that tech is production ready yet so I'll exclude it from the current discussion.

A 40 MPG F150 costs $0.0825/mile at $3.3/gal. A Lightning costs $0.16/mile fast charging at $0.4/kWh, $0.06/mile level 2 charging at home at $0.15/kWh OR is just the amortized cost of your solar array. My buddy drives his Bolt around a big city and it is exceptionally cheap for him because he never had to fast charge even when he only had level 1; there is NO SCENARIO where EVs do not completely take over the short range urban use case, which is a huge portion of driving. The Aptera is just about the purest expression of the stuff that an EV does well leveraged while the stuff that EVs are not good at left out. The polar opposite is the Lightning, which uses outdated tech (giant motor/transaxles connected to the wheels via CV shafts) and plays hard into BEV weaknesses without getting access to the benefits except for instant torque. Despite that, the Lightning is a great truck for tradespeople with relatively light equipment who are operating in a limited area near a location where they can charge cheaply or folks who didn't really need a truck but like the look.

The biggest issue for wide adoption of EVs is that a guy with a 90 MPG hybrid is paying less per mile than a guy with a Bolt. The buzz around BEVs has stunted recognition of the revolution in ICE tech that has occurred over the past 10 years, wherein a bunch of old ideas finally started working really well on a consumer scale because computers got so good. That delta only gets wider as DCFCs and potentially efficient TEGs come online. Meanwhile, the cost per kWh will get worse under the strain of new demand.....from EVs. NONE of that applies to folks who a generating their own power from roof solar, in which case a BEV is nearly impossible to argue against.

Edit: applied correction for l/gal to charge rate twice.

Nice discussion... assumes that the world is always 80ºF...

 

[thebigdu]

but the 2x a year we run to get groceries is a 300 mile round trip. (meats, and non perishables)

Come again?

 

[Spiffy]

Don't feed the corporate presstitutes. This message has been brought to you by pfizer.

Big oil went after nuclear like mad and look where that got us. Their propaganda division will do the same for EVs. Which with their numerous faults, are still the best option for an overwhelming number of vehicle owners. One would even be foolish to not have an EV in a 2 vehicle household today. Once the charging infrastructure gets better as well as battery tech / charging time, it'll be a whole lot easier to transition completely.

The idea of being able to literally free your mobility from countries and companies that hate you by charging via the sun is really priceless. Some will try and sell others on it being "green", which it is not. What it is however is being smart. Gas doubling or tripling (again) will have little impact on your ability to move about. It'll still raise the cost of other goods, but you can literally operate a vehicle on sunshine. Crazy

Damit hammaMan. You made a comment implying the how foolish it was not to own a ev and how it's overwhelming that we all should own one is.
I decided to do some research so I could respectfully have a conversation with you . I always agree or at least get some benefits from your input.
But this time I chose to use Chat-gtp. I wanted to have real studys to refer to. I got into a 3 hour argument with a robot over the costs mile per mile carbon footprints between ice and EV.
I was forcing Chat-gtp to consider everything including the benefit of e85 and how the production of the farming aspect actually removes co2.
My brain is fried and I don't have the energy to debate your comments here any more.
Sparing with an AI takes it out of you.

 

[Gros Ventre]

In many cases, all you do with an electric vehicle is move the tail pipe.

 

[powerboatr]

Come again?

we are retired navy
the closest commissary is Shreveport LA its 150 or so one way
much faster than driving into the crap station of dallas/grand prairie, which is about same miles
we stock up on MEATS at worthwhile prices, coupons usually cover the gas and food it takes to run out there, its an all day adventure, 6 hrs in store, and 4 or more on road

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