Any word about the Range Extender Patent?

[Lightning_Bob]

Greetings All,

Any word about the Range Extender that Ford has a patent on?
https://www.thedrive.com/news/36793...-extending-gas-generator-disguised-as-toolbox

Really hope they make their Range Extender a reality...

The rumor is that the engineers/designers envisioned a system that would look like a bed mounted tool box that could be installed with 4 folks... Unless they rekindled a partnership with Mazda and were able to utilize the rotary engine - those four folks would have to be pretty buff... The rotary engine would be the ideal choice in this use case scenario - very compact, high performance to weight ratio, occasional use (rotary engines were never known for long service intervals or reliability?). Even if it weighed in over 500 lbs (time to get a hoist at harbor freight) - I would still want to get one for occasional use...or better yet if it was rent-able....

The generator in the range extender wouldn't necessarily need to have a huge output - if it could do 25kwh - it would effectively make the the range of the truck (assuming it wasn't towing anything) limited by the fuel capacity/refueling -- - assumptions - 60mph at 230 miles range (standard battery) = approx 4 hours driving ---so roughly 25kw used per hour (the battery capacity is thought to be around 100kwh for the standard range)... of course folks will drive faster/have terrain challenges/towing stuff,etc -so the range extender will be lower than a 1:1 recharge rate - but I would suspect, even at 15-20kwh, though the battery would be depleting while the range extender was working - it would deplete a much slower rate, most likely allowing easily 2-3x range of the battery alone.

The proposition for a range extender deal gets even better:
- Assuming the truck was parked in a well ventilated area, it could fully charge the battery while parked in a little over four hours. (assuming 25kwh output and the standard range battery) - Due to ZEV rules integrated range extenders in Electric Vehicles cannot do this - but since this a modular add-on, this limitation probably wouldn't apply.
- It being used in conjunction with the truck's battery system as a huge inverter generator - charging the battery at a lower/quieter rpm when the truck is feeding power to a house at 10kwh - the battery will handle the surges (AC compressor, microwave use, well pumps, etc) and the range extender could just charge the battery as slower/quieter consistent rate whenever it hit a threshold (30-50%) then turn off at 90%. Would reduce maintenance hours if you only had to maintain this range extender that sees occasional use, vs most generators that most are seldom used (less than once a year) that you have to do quarterly checkup/maintenance one because it isn't turned on enough...
- A huge plus of having a modular range extender - if there are issues with the range extender - it would be nice to just drop off the box to a ford dealership and continuing my day instead of dropping off the vehicle and wait a week to get it serviced by a very limited supply of certified EV techs...Coming from a BMW i3 REx (Range Extender is integrated into the electric vehicle) this would save so much time and inconvenience.

Keeping fingers crossed!

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[Brian Head Yankee]

You express range anxiety and off grid scenarios. Range anxiety is not a thing and the Lightning will power your house for three days during a power outage. (load dependent). You didn't lay out a scenario where the Lightning has any shortcomings. When I see posts about range anxiety, I laugh. Who drives 350 miles/ 6 hours without stopping to eat or pee?

I have spoken to multiple companies that build 5kw to 20kw battery generators. Take a look at Volt Stack in Canada. Their 20kW unit fits inside a sprinter van. Heavy and as large as a comparable 20kW gas genset. Much more expensive.

I spoke to the people at SparkCharge. They make the Roadie. They told me customers are tossing their portable battery pack into the trunk for a range extender. The Roadie sooths range anxiety. A 14kW system with L3 cord pack plus four battery packs is $20,000. Not too bad.


Four reasons why the patented extender will never be practical:

1. rotary = inefficient and dirty

2. 25 kw generator = HUGE, loud, dirty, heavy

3. Most popular home generator = 10 kW and would fill the bed of a pickup.

4. "Slower quieter gasoline engine = does not exist

 

[Blainestang]

I think it might not be a bad idea for Ford to have dealers have a couple of these available for rent.

It would be sort of like how BMW originally let i3 owners borrow a gas BMW for 2 weeks per year. Just the fact that it exists eliminates some "range anxiety" for people considering buying an EV.

In reality, once people buy and use the truck, I think they'll realize they don't NEED it very often (or ever), but it might be helpful for some combination of long/remote/towing trips, and for the comforting effect on buyers. Of course, there won't be any shortage of buyers for the next few years anyway, so maybe that's not a big selling point.

One major question I would have is: How would it actually charge the Lightning while driving?

 

[Blainestang]

Four reasons why the patented extender will never be practical:

1. rotary = inefficient and dirty

2. 25 kw generator = HUGE, loud, dirty, heavy

3. Most popular home generator = 10 kW and would fill the bed of a pickup.

4. "Slower quieter gasoline engine = does not exist

The BMW i3's 25kW generator fits under the trunk floor of the i3. I bet it could be made to fit into the bed of an F-150... but once you add the fuel tank, it would take up most of the bed, for sure.

Range anxiety is not a thing. When I see posts about range anxiety, I laugh. Who drives 350 miles/ 6 hours without stopping to eat or pee?

Range anxiety is a thing. 350 miles? 300 miles is Extended Range. Less if it's a Platinum. 230 miles if it's a Standard Range. Less if it's cold. And probably around half that if you're towing something substantial.

So, there's a huge difference between a speculative 350 mile-range and towing with a Standard Range that may only have ~120 miles of range. And it's really time inefficient to take the time to charge to 100%, so you probably charge to 80%. Now it's ~100 miles of range between charges. An extra ~30% of range (25kW * 1.5hr * 0.85 / 115kWh) between charges is actually pretty useful. 100 miles might not even get you between fast chargers in some cases.

I don't think there are a LOT of use cases for this, but there are some where it's legitimately useful and quite a few more where it's a nice safety blanket, and it's mere existence helps ease range anxiety for new BEV owners.

 

[Brian Head Yankee]

97% of all EV trips are less than 30 miles. I will stick to my opinion that it is a non issue. If you are one in a million that needs an extender, then an EV is not the right tool for your task.

 

[GarageMahal]

The BMW i3's 25kW generator fits under the trunk floor of the i3. I bet it could be made to fit into the bed of an F-150... but once you add the fuel tank, it would take up most of the bed, for sure.

It is not a 25kW generator, that is what that battery size is. The generator is much, much smaller but I didn't find out its output via google.

Corrected below...

 

[Blainestang]

It is not a 25kW generator, that is what that battery size is. The generator is much, much smaller but I didn't find out its output via google.

Battery size for the i3 is ~22kWh, ~33kWh, and ~44kWh, depending on year.

i3 Generator output is ~34hp, which is ~25kW.

 

[GarageMahal]

Battery size for the i3 is ~22kWh, ~33kWh, and ~44kWh, depending on year.

i3 Generator output is ~34hp, which is ~25kW.

You are correct, bad math day for me. So that would get about 50 miles of charge in an hour using the Lightning's assumed 2mi/kw estimate.

Interesting for a couple hundred pounds...

 

[Blainestang]

97% of all EV trips are less than 30 miles. I will stick to my opinion that it is a non issue. If you are one in a million that needs an extender, then an EV is not the right tool for your task.

That’s literally the point: 97% of ones trips are fine for the Lightning, but for the very rare case where it isn’t, this would be available for rent. Like if you want to take a long trip towing an RV or something.

It doesn’t make sense to buy a totally different truck for a once in a lifetime type trip, but rent a range extender for 2 weeks to make your Lightning work? Ok.

If someone needs it frequently, then yeah, a Lightning is the wrong truck. But if they need it once every two years or something, then a gas truck is the wrong truck for 99% of their driving and it makes sense to make the Lightning work for that last 1% rather than drive the wrong truck for 99% based on the 1%. That’s where a rental range extender comes in.

 

[rado]

97% of all EV trips are less than 30 miles. I will stick to my opinion that it is a non issue. If you are one in a million that needs an extender, then an EV is not the right tool for your task.

These EV trips are mostly family vehicles used primarily to drive to/from work/school and around town where you can charge up your vehicle at the house without any worry. They aren't designed to carry anything/tow anything. People that are looking at a Ford Lightning are most likely looking at it as a daily driver as well as something that can tow toys around on the weekends. With such limited range when towing (speculative) I can see why this is a large issue for those looking specifically at the Ford Lightning as opposed to just any random EV.

 

[Diabolical!]

I have a 22kw whole house generator. When I have the case open for maintenance, it looks pretty obvious to me that the guts could be reconfigured to fit in a housing resembling a truckbed toolbox. I have a feeling Ford's engineers could come up with something similar.

 

[vandy1981]

With such limited range when towing (speculative) I can see why this is a large issue for those looking specifically at t

Long-haul towing is going to be an edge case for the first generation of electric trucks. There are thousands of people lined up to buy the R1T, hummer, F150L and CT and I don't see much benefit to developing rex technology at the moment.

Ford will gladly sell a Powerboost F150 to those who have the need for long distance towing. They might even throw a plug on the Powerboost someday!

 

[Lightning_Bob]

You express range anxiety and off grid scenarios. Range anxiety is not a thing and the Lightning will power your house for three days during a power outage. (load dependent). You didn't lay out a scenario where the Lightning has any shortcomings. When I see posts about range anxiety, I laugh.

EVs are great for daily routines. Ours comfortably covers 99% of our use.
However, coming from a non tesla EV (their build out of the very expansive Supercharger network was really smart)- Range Anxiety is a thing - albeit fairly uncommon in that it only should happen during long trips or unplanned detours...as they say "SH*t Happens" Assuming Tesla opens up their charging network - even if they gouged non tesla drivers at 4-6x charging rates that would alleviate range anxiety, assuming Electrify America doesn't get lazy and continues putting out their fast chargers and Tesla's network can take on the additional traffic. Sitting and waiting for a Tesla Supercharger Spot or DC fast charge stop is pain in the butt....besides that your EV will take 30 mins to charge to 80%, the drivers in front of you may take more than 30 mins as they want a 100% charge...so your planned 30 minute stop, turns into an hour or more....and its not like you can just park, go to eat, then move your truck in when your done eating - no you have to wait in the vehicle so you can pull into the spot when it opens up.... Let us go a step further and say you are towing something - It is really nice that the charge port is in the front of the vehicle vs near the rear so you can just pull into the charger vs unhitching your trailer and backing into the spot - however for a lot of station, having that trailer stick out the rear will cause blockage of the charger behind you -- unfortunately the vast majority of fast chargers & superchargers and not pull through....

This is very niche, but also Hurricane Evacuations from South Florida - This scenario while uncommon (usually less than 2x over 3 years), however does happen in this neck of the woods -- if you think gas lines are bad during a mass evacuation then, imagine what DC charging/supercharger lines would be like...the ability to drive 600 miles without having to stop in those areas is like having a golden ticket. The solution I've used in the past, is rent a minivan for 2 weeks - drive them right and you can get 600+ miles from a single tank - not sure this would work this year due to the shortage of rental cars.... Again these are all fringe items at 1%... but for folks that will only have one vehicle, they are things to consider...

In my area - when we get direct hits from a Cat 3 or greater hurricane - we don't get power restored for 2-3 weeks. One of the biggest reasons I am considering the lightning is for it's 100kwh battery....if just looking at the battery it has very attractive pricing compared to traditional solar/house batteries (Tesla powerwalls, Enphase, Solara, Panasonic, etc) and you get a "free" truck to go with it ;-) - The standard range 100kwh battery should last my house about 2 days, but then what?...until I get solar, I'll have to use a generator....I would like having a generator that would be useful to be beyond just powering my house during these times - by having a generator that I would need maybe 3-4x a year to extend the range of the vehicle, will ensure it at least gets ran quarterly and kept in running condition without having to put a calendar reminder solely for generator check and maintenance...

I have spoken to multiple companies that build 5kw to 20kw battery generators. Take a look at Volt Stack in Canada. Their 20kW unit fits inside a sprinter van. Heavy and as large as a comparable 20kW gas genset. Much more expensive.

I spoke to the people at SparkCharge. They make the Roadie. They told me customers are tossing their portable battery pack into the trunk for a range extender. The Roadie sooths range anxiety. A 14kW system with L3 cord pack plus four battery packs is $20,000. Not too bad.

From a value proposition of the Lighting pro with 100kwh battery coming in around 35K after incentives (possibly less if the 12.5K credit gets passed) - 20K for 14kw isn't a good deal at all...then again...what are you going to do - tow an extra lightning behind your lighting? ;-)

Four reasons why the patented extender will never be practical:

1. rotary = inefficient and dirty

2. 25 kw generator = HUGE, loud, dirty, heavy

3. Most popular home generator = 10 kW and would fill the bed of a pickup.

4. "Slower quieter gasoline engine = does not exist

1. yes - but as an occasional use item, this may be ok...just try not to run it in dense urban areas or parked nearby pedestrian areas...
2. yes - Heavy...and I don't think ford has a small motor that fits for this use case scenario - hence the rotary engine idea....though Honda might have even better options
3. most generators are intended to run as stationary units - No way Ford will open themselves to liability by putting an open/non propriety charge inlet that would allow any generator to charge the battery while the truck was in motion....however this may be a great setup if going deep into trails that have no infrastructure - and you can just run the generator while you are stopping over night and plug in your EVSE....
4. The i3 REx kinda does this, its still loud, but not as loud....in the i3 REx the generator is set to put out more power at 57mph and lower output at certain tiers of speed - this was done so that the driver wouldn't really hear the generator when it was running (57mph and greater you have road noise to cover up the sound of the generator)

 

[Lightning_Bob]

The BMW i3's 25kW generator fits under the trunk floor of the i3. I bet it could be made to fit into the bed of an F-150... but once you add the fuel tank, it would take up most of the bed, for sure.

The 25kw generator of the i3 - doesn't actually put out 25kw. That is it's maximum output per it's original use as a scooter motor - in the i3, it is more like a 10-17kw generator as it is tuned to run at a slower rpm.

Workhorse had a deal with BMW to use this range extender for their planned truck W15 - not sure BMW would be willing to work with Ford though...

 

[Lightning_Bob]

97% of all EV trips are less than 30 miles. I will stick to my opinion that it is a non issue. If you are one in a million that needs an extender, then an EV is not the right tool for your task.

99% of my driving is 50 miles or less - however for that 1% time I do need it, it would be nice if I didn't need a second vehicle... A modular add-on that doesn't impact production of the truck is a win for everyone...

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