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3.5 PowerBoost engine wear prevention procedures?

Harlemox

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I'm new to the world of Ford Hybrid powertrains; that being said, I'm dangerous with the knowledge I can gain via Google.

One thing I've been wondering about with the hybrid electric powertrain on the F-150 3.5 Powerboost is how Ford engineers are attempting to minimize wear from the constant start up/shut off of the engine.

As far as I can tell, the 3.5 Powerboost is a 3.5 Gen II Ecoboost strapped to a modified 10R80, i.e. the 10R80-MHT. The MHT transmission of course notably has an electric motor and disconnect clutch, but retains the torque converter, allowing the electric motor to spin the input of the torque converter.

I question how the internal bearings/etc. of the engine are protected against the constant start/stop of the engine. Conventional knowledge of modern engine architecture says that they are using oil films that are developed through engine oil pressure, and thus the crank/rods and such do not make metal to metal contact. Now, when an engine starts, there is a time where the oil film is very thin and the engine has to build oil pressure in order to help ensure the oil film is adequate for the power it is making.

Watching the "dummy" oil pressure gauge on my dash, I can see that the oil pressure builds at a rate I would expect it to for a conventional started engine when the truck switches over to hybrid mode i.e. using the engine. Does anyone know if Ford has any tricks up their sleeves to help minimize low oil pressure wear when the engines start after running in EV mode for a while? I've seen my engine go from off to 1800 RPM under very light throttle conditions, which is slightly concerning if there is no engine oil pressure before the engine hits that speed.

I know these engines have been in auto-start stop vehicles but traditionally when they start they don't get immediately spun to 1800 RPM for example, but rather, start to idle then increase their RPM from idle.

I know in the Prius world they allege that the engines do not shoot fuel/ignition until the engine has adequate oil pressure.
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Redskins5

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I'm new to the world of Ford Hybrid powertrains; that being said, I'm dangerous with the knowledge I can gain via Google.

One thing I've been wondering about with the hybrid electric powertrain on the F-150 3.5 Powerboost is how Ford engineers are attempting to minimize wear from the constant start up/shut off of the engine.

As far as I can tell, the 3.5 Powerboost is a 3.5 Gen II Ecoboost strapped to a modified 10R80, i.e. the 10R80-MHT. The MHT transmission of course notably has an electric motor and disconnect clutch, but retains the torque converter, allowing the electric motor to spin the input of the torque converter.

I question how the internal bearings/etc. of the engine are protected against the constant start/stop of the engine. Conventional knowledge of modern engine architecture says that they are using oil films that are developed through engine oil pressure, and thus the crank/rods and such do not make metal to metal contact. Now, when an engine starts, there is a time where the oil film is very thin and the engine has to build oil pressure in order to help ensure the oil film is adequate for the power it is making.

Watching the "dummy" oil pressure gauge on my dash, I can see that the oil pressure builds at a rate I would expect it to for a conventional started engine when the truck switches over to hybrid mode i.e. using the engine. Does anyone know if Ford has any tricks up their sleeves to help minimize low oil pressure wear when the engines start after running in EV mode for a while? I've seen my engine go from off to 1800 RPM under very light throttle conditions, which is slightly concerning if there is no engine oil pressure before the engine hits that speed.

I know these engines have been in auto-start stop vehicles but traditionally when they start they don't get immediately spun to 1800 RPM for example, but rather, start to idle then increase their RPM from idle.

I know in the Prius world they allege that the engines do not shoot fuel/ignition until the engine has adequate oil pressure.
Can't say to much about the f 150 but I had a ford C-max hybrid and an Escape Hybrid and a fusion Hybrid, I never had issues of this type with any of them. We also have about 50 2009 ford fusion Hybrids at work and have had no problems of the type you describe. Granted smaller motors and lighter cars but technology has been around.
 

AutonomousHybridF150

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Ford historically and currently, does not tell you your oil pressure variability. If the truck computer detects “enough” oil pressure, then the gauge shows middle of Low to High. The time it takes for the gauge to go from 0 to normal pressure is simply the animation the Ford programmer created to look pretty.

There’s another thread somewhere, and one of the contributors confirmed that the engine maintains 15 lbs of oil pressure while the engine is off. This was using a OBD2 or equivalent gauge pod unit.

The same poster stated the the prior model EB motor would hold pressure for a short time, but gradually leak down over a few minutes.

I’ll try to link the post/thread.
 
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Harlemox

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Ford historically and currently, does not tell you your oil pressure variability. If the truck computer detects “enough” oil pressure, then the gauge shows middle of Low to High. The time it takes for the gauge to go from 0 to normal pressure is simply the animation the Ford programmer created to look pretty.
That's interesting, but the animation gives me anxiety haha. So much so that I've replaced that gauge on my cluster w/ the transmission temperature.

There’s another thread somewhere, and one of the contributors confirmed that the engine maintains 15 lbs of oil pressure while the engine is off. This was using a OBD2 or equivalent gauge pod unit.

The same poster stated the the prior model EB motor would hold pressure for a short time, but gradually leak down over a few minutes.
That's really interesting. I wonder if the OBD2 gauge is actually accurate and/or how they're able to keep oil pressure up without having the pump run by something else or using some type of accumulator.

A parts diagram would certainly be great, but no idea how to find one for a Ford, other than the limited parts diagrams they have available on https://parts.ford.com
 

AutonomousHybridF150

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Here is the lengthy post link, which explains everything that I know about the truck holding oil pressure. The post includes photos etc.

https://www.f150gen14.com/forum/threads/powerboost-rough-charging-idle.4912/post-80966

I believe it is some sort of check valve or other keeping the pressure held.

Maybe this is the reason for the dual staters (traditional gear and belt drive generator/starter? If the oil pressure bleeds down it uses the normal starting process to get the oil flowing? Idk. Just talking here. Lol.
 

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I've used the same ODB "tuner/monitor" for both my 2018 3.5EB and my new Powerboost. I assure you that the oil pressure on the Ecoboost would bleed down from its normal ~23-28psi at idle to Zero psi when the motor would stop at an intersection. And it actually took just a few seconds. Less than 5.

Note that the oil pressure has a very fast refresh rate and is always dancing around. (see the video link below to watch the oil pressure during a pre-oiling cold start routine)

But unlike the previous Ecoboost, as the poster stated above said, when the motor stops on the Powerboost the oil pressure drops to somewhere between 14.xx and 15.xx. However, it's not fluctuating hardly at all. Almost static. It will suddenly change a fraction of a lb, but hold that value as well. I don't have a clue how Ford would be holding pressure, but then I'm surprised by a lot of things Ford did with this amazing truck.

Also, that previous poster is absolutely right regarding the factory oil pressure gauge. It's no more than a graphic image that in no way represents a pressure reading. Totally fake.

 

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I’m not worried about that with modern lubricants.

On my cars and bikes I drive infrequently, I use high zinc oils for exactly that reason. Valvoline VR1, Joe Gibbs Driven, or Brad Penn. But you can’t use them on cars with catalytic converters.
 

AutonomousHybridF150

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I've used the same ODB "tuner/monitor" for both my 2018 3.5EB and my new Powerboost. I assure you that the oil pressure on the Ecoboost would bleed down from its normal ~23-28psi at idle to Zero psi when the motor would stop at an intersection. And it actually took just a few seconds. Less than 5.

Note that the oil pressure has a very fast refresh rate and is always dancing around. (see the video link below to watch the oil pressure during a pre-oiling cold start routine)

But unlike the previous Ecoboost, as the poster stated above said, when the motor stops on the Powerboost the oil pressure drops to somewhere between 14.xx and 15.xx. However, it's not fluctuating hardly at all. Almost static. It will suddenly change a fraction of a lb, but hold that value as well. I don't have a clue how Ford would be holding pressure, but then I'm surprised by a lot of things Ford did with this amazing truck.

Also, that previous poster is absolutely right regarding the factory oil pressure gauge. It's no more than a graphic image that in no way represents a pressure reading. Totally fake.

I used to do the same thing to circulate oil before cranking: after oil changes, if cold weather and hasn’t run in a while, or new engine builds.

After discussing this with a 4.6/5.4 race car engine builder I had gotten to know at Triangle Speed Shop in Orange TX, he advised they tested this as they used to do the same. They found that every non-operating oil pressure rotation of the assembly caused more wear because the oil pump barely pumps any pressure at that low crank RPM. He stated that allowing the engine to crank up to idle RPM got oil to the engine quicker and with less rotations of the rotating assembly.

Oh yeah. Also because my sister was helping my brother prime his 03 Mach 1 after an oil change, but she didn’t understand the importance of 100% throttle for fuel shut off (not 95%), so the motor cranked to max RPM with a dry oil pump and spun a rod bearing.

The Mach 1 had about 10,000 miles on it too, so it hurt my feelings a whole lot, and I never could bring myself to do that again. Sad sad learning experience for my Brother and Sister. Lol.
 
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Harlemox

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Maybe this is the reason for the dual staters (traditional gear and belt drive generator/starter? If the oil pressure bleeds down it uses the normal starting process to get the oil flowing? Idk. Just talking here. Lol.
I actually have the theory that the traditional starter is retained for the purposes of allowing jump starting of the truck, in the event that both the 12V and hybrid battery packs are dead.

Does anyone know if the BISG (Belt starter) runs off of 12 volts or a higher, closer to pack voltage? I've never seen a BISG run off of 12 volts...

But unlike the previous Ecoboost, as the poster stated above said, when the motor stops on the Powerboost the oil pressure drops to somewhere between 14.xx and 15.xx. However, it's not fluctuating hardly at all. Almost static. It will suddenly change a fraction of a lb, but hold that value as well. I don't have a clue how Ford would be holding pressure, but then I'm surprised by a lot of things Ford did with this amazing truck.
This is ... really interesting. Conventional knowledge of engines would say that any oil pressure with no replenishment (pump) would just bleed down to 0 through the journals...

Reading your other post, if the oil pressure gauge is based on 7 PSI, wouldn't 14-15 PSI be above that 7 PSI threshold, and thus the gauge show oil pressure constantly even with the engine off then?

I wonder if there's some weird logic going on in the ECU that is "tampering" with the reported oil pressure.
 

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I admit that I had no real science to support the coldstart procedure, but I have been on the Ecoboost boards for some years and the coldstart clacking of those phasers is a sensitive subject. Especially the Gen1 guys and the very expensive timing chain repair that usually followed afterwards. Although the Gen2 redesign was significant enough to put a big dent in the number of trucks stretching timing chains, the fact that the phasers would clack if the truck sat long enough to drain back, and that the clack was so strongly associated with expen$ive repairs, it became a "thing" to pump some oil up on top and avoid that nasty sound.

I had that truck for just short of 4 years and never heard a single "what was that" sound out of it. It was as pristine when I traded it as the day I got it. Fantastic machine.

This Powerboost? I have no clue what all those strange sounds are that come out of it. Lol
Half of them when it isn't even running!

I don't know if it's going to be as good a truck as any of my last 3 F150's, but I do know it's more amazing than all of them collectively.
 

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Snakebitten

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I actually have the theory that the traditional starter is retained for the purposes of allowing jump starting of the truck, in the event that both the 12V and hybrid battery packs are dead.

Does anyone know if the BISG (Belt starter) runs off of 12 volts or a higher, closer to pack voltage? I've never seen a BISG run off of 12 volts...


This is ... really interesting. Conventional knowledge of engines would say that any oil pressure with no replenishment (pump) would just bleed down to 0 through the journals...

Reading your other post, if the oil pressure gauge is based on 7 PSI, wouldn't 14-15 PSI be above that 7 PSI threshold, and thus the gauge show oil pressure constantly even with the engine off then?

I wonder if there's some weird logic going on in the ECU that is "tampering" with the reported oil pressure.
According to the shop manual there are 4 "conditions" for starting the truck and 3 of those conditions use the generator-starter, otherwise called the belt start.
The 4th condition is for "remote start" and uses a conventional starter.

I don't know if Ford just left the information at that because it is that simple, or if they have a reason to not elaborate further.

As for the ODB oil pressure reading a numerical value VS the dash gauge being a yes/no answer to 7lbs, keep in mind the pressure switch for the dash gauge is just that, a switch. Whatever the ODB has for actually pressure readings definitely comes from elsewhere.

By the way, on some model years of the Ecoboost the dash gauge STAYS put even with the motor stopped and the oil pressure reading 0. That can only happen if Ford internationally chose to write code that said during a stop event, override the pressure switch signal on the dash graphic. It's kinda funny when you think about it. They actually had to discuss that. I guarantee you there was some giggles and some jokes at our expense. (I don't take it personal of course)
 

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Here's an excerpt from the Service Manual that gives a brief summary of what is happening. It's definitely not leveraging a starter for the start/stop....it's far more seamless and I would go so far as to say that it's a much more reliable way to do this. Which makes sense because the start/stop for this truck feels great to me, it doesn't annoy me like the auto stop/start feature in regular ICE Fords that I've driven.


Ford F-150 3.5 PowerBoost engine wear prevention procedures? Screen Shot 2021-08-04 at 9.47.43 AM
 

AutonomousHybridF150

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Here's an excerpt from the Service Manual that gives a brief summary of what is happening. It's definitely not leveraging a starter for the start/stop....it's far more seamless and I would go so far as to say that it's a much more reliable way to do this. Which makes sense because the start/stop for this truck feels great to me, it doesn't annoy me like the auto stop/start feature in regular ICE Fords that I've driven.


Screen Shot 2021-08-04 at 9.47.43 AM.png
Ok thats cool to see and know.

Does anyone know what the little motor sound is when you touch the brake or throttle? It this the electric motor running and waiting for more throttle pressure to engage the clutch?

that’s almost what it sounds like. Motor whirs when throttle touched, go a few percent more, and the engine fires up.
 
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Harlemox

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Ok thats cool to see and know.

Does anyone know what the little motor sound is when you touch the brake or throttle? It this the electric motor running and waiting for more throttle pressure to engage the clutch?

that’s almost what it sounds like. Motor whirs when throttle touched, go a few percent more, and the engine fires up.
Your description of the sound is a bit vague, so I'm guessing you're talking about the whirring/high pitch whistle?

I've come to assume that noise is the electric motor/powertrain. The electric motor is pretty much always spinning as long as the transmission is in gear and the vehicle is moving.
 

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Ok thats cool to see and know.

Does anyone know what the little motor sound is when you touch the brake or throttle? It this the electric motor running and waiting for more throttle pressure to engage the clutch?

that’s almost what it sounds like. Motor whirs when throttle touched, go a few percent more, and the engine fires up.
At low speeds there's artificial sound that is emitted from the truck that I have called the "sci-fi" noise. Sounds like something from Blade Runner.
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