Uh, Oh... looks like the EV tax credits are hitting an obstacle

[Pioneer74]

You mean like handing out EV credits?

My thoughts on EV credits are this. I think the product should stand on its own. If it's good enough it will sell without government handouts.

However, if the government feels they need to help push things along, then they should effect change that will actually make a difference. Hard product price caps. Nothing over, say, 40k. And make it like cash-for-clunkers. You have to turn a gas burning vehicle in to qualify, and that vehicle has to be destroyed.

The people buying electric cars right now can afford them without government assistance. Giving somebody free government cheese that is buying an $80k toy isn't effecting change. You need to get the older, less efficient, vehicles off the road. The current system, and the proposed one, doesn't do that.

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[Losi]

And make it like cash-for-clunkers. You have to turn a gas burning vehicle in to qualify, and that vehicle has to be destroyed.

I’m buying what you’re selling here.

 

[greenne]

How can anyone be surprised about inflation when the "market" is reacting to 12-15 months of pent up demand combined with limited supply? It seems like supply and demand to me... on steroids.

These things are always cyclical. Once the supply catches up and people get all this post covid "excitement" out of their system prices will crash. You can't just turn on/off the supply chain and/or manufacturing assembly lines.

Things will even out over time.. making this political will drag it out with negative speculation and panic reactions.

 

[greenne]

Back to the topic at hand.....the EV tax credit is to promote EV adoption...not to pick winners and losers. The theory is that it is cheaper to pay someone "not" to damage the environment than to pay for the cleanup after the fact. When you buy a gasoline car you exert an environmental cost upon taxpayers for cleanup...increased medical costs(asthma, etc), increased A/C energy usage, property damage due to extreme weather, etc.

With that said....even as a "liberal" I think if the intention is to promote EV ownership the full $12,500 should be open to all US factories--not just union ones. I could even be convinced that all EVs should be included....as there are not enough US made EVs to meet the anticipated demand in with the full tax credit in place.

Edit: Or better yet...make it progressive. Make it first five years any EV qualifies, but after that they have to be manufactured in the US. I am somewhat upset Ford is choosing to manufacture the upcoming Explorer EV in Mexico(per reports). I wish they would reconsider and make it here in the US.

 

[SteffanG]

Because it isn't about which is the best product from the buyers perspective, it is about what is needed to slow climate change. Free market economies are very bad about dealing with tragedies of the commons (pollution being a big one) so gov't has a role in correcting that market behavior for the betterment of society.

The biggest polluter in the world by a large margin is China. They will never do anything about it as it is one of the main reasons that they produce things so cheaply ( along with paying workers next to nothing and having almost zero safety standards).

There is a reason that the US and Canada have almost no metal production plants - the pollution reduction systems cost so much money to install and maintain that it is better for them to produce it somewhere else and import it.

 

[greenne]

The biggest polluter in the world by a large margin is China. They will never do anything about it as it is one of the main reasons that they produce things so cheaply ( along with paying workers next to nothing and having almost zero safety standards).

There is a reason that the US and Canada have almost no metal production plants - the pollution reduction systems cost so much money to install and maintain that it is better for them to produce it somewhere else and import it.

So the answer is "f the environment" because China does it?

 

[Snakebitten]

I'm old now, so I have decades of personal history to form my current viewpoints.

I really don't mind, and even agree that a government, our government, should participate in trying to remedy issues that a government actually could.

My only gripe is that they just aren't very good at it.

The good news is that regardless of how much they have made a mess of things in my 63 years, I'm really enjoying all the new stuff that modern life offers that was science fiction when I was growing up.

I want to go back in time, say 1972, to my high school parking lot with a Lightning. Oh my goodness. I bet I could get a date with the prom queen, for all the wrong reasons of course.

I plan on having one at some point in the future. Regardless of what our hapless government decides to do.

 

[rdr854]

I'm old now, so I have decades of personal history to form my current viewpoints.

I really don't mind, and even agree that a government, our government, should participate in trying to remedy issues that a government actually could.

My only gripe is that they just aren't very good at it.

The good news is that regardless of how much they have made a mess of things in my 63 years, I'm really enjoying all the new stuff that modern life offers that was science fiction when I was growing up.

I want to go back in time, say 1972, to my high school parking lot with a Lightning. Oh my goodness. I bet I could get a date with the prom queen, for all the wrong reasons of course.

I plan on having one at some point in the future. Regardless of what our hapless government decides to do.

Heck, 1979 when I graduated high school. Who knew we’d have Star Trek communicators (flip phones, much less smart phones) or Dick Tracy watches (Apple watches). It is amazing what has happened since you and I graduated high school. But that said, if you look over any 50 period in the industrial revolution and since, the technological changes have likewise been amazing. I think of my mom being born when the Model T was still being built and still being alive as the Tesla EV revolution with the Model S was taking hold. And, my mother in law has even lived longer to see much more (she was born the same year as my Mom and is still very much alive and well!).

 

[SteffanG]

[

So the answer is "f the environment" because China does it?

What i am saying is there needs to be a point where trying to go further on climate change things is not worth the cost. The US is responsible for 11% of world emissions, so yes there is room for improvement but when you consider China is responsible for 27% (more than all developed nations combined) and has no plans of reducing until after 2030. The only advantage China has is that their per capita percentage is lower due to them having so many people and so many people living in severe poverty.
Things are so cheap to produce in China due to very low wages, very low living standards, very low safety standards, and very low pollution reduction requirements. In a way China is required for the US and Canada to live the way we do as products manufactured here would be cost prohibitive in comparison.

All I am saying, is these high EV credits shouldn't even be on the table. $5k would be more than sufficient. If you consider in Canada we get no EV credit on any of the F150L versions and yet they could probably still sell every single one they make to just Canadians.
The whole proposition of this tax credit violates the NAFTA agreement with Canada as we are a big supplier to build vehicles.

 

[Losi]

The biggest polluter in the world by a large margin is China. They will never do anything about it as it is one of the main reasons that they produce things so cheaply ( along with paying workers next to nothing and having almost zero safety standards).

There is a reason that the US and Canada have almost no metal production plants - the pollution reduction systems cost so much money to install and maintain that it is better for them to produce it somewhere else and import it.

You raise an excellent point here about the cost of reducing pollution— it’s a legitimate issue for US manufacturers. However, one could reasonably argue that the cost of doing nothing, or having other countries pollute for us, will have a FAR greater impact on our economy, health, infrastructure, environment etc. We’re already seeing that happening on an unprecedented level. Maybe it’s cyclical and in 300 or 1000 years the climate will be back to normal, but in the meantime, it seems like we could do better. Other countries could do better. I think the government should incentivize electric vehicles and agree the current system is stupid and has to be much improved. Put Pioneer74 on the Board, he has some common sense ideas in this area.

 

[greenne]

[
What i am saying is there needs to be a point where trying to go further on climate change things is not worth the cost. The US is responsible for 11% of world emissions, so yes there is room for improvement but when you consider China is responsible for 27% (more than all developed nations combined) and has no plans of reducing until after 2030. The only advantage China has is that their per capita percentage is lower due to them having so many people and so many people living in severe poverty.
Things are so cheap to produce in China due to very low wages, very low living standards, very low safety standards, and very low pollution reduction requirements. In a way China is required for the US and Canada to live the way we do as products manufactured here would be cost prohibitive in comparison.

All I am saying, is these high EV credits shouldn't even be on the table. $5k would be more than sufficient. If you consider in Canada we get no EV credit on any of the F150L versions and yet they could probably still sell every single one they make to just Canadians.
The whole proposition of this tax credit violates the NAFTA agreement with Canada as we are a big supplier to build vehicles.

An argument could be made that financially it makes sense to curb our pollution despite what China does or does not do. Dirty air alone cost us Billions in health and environmental cost. Yes China should do more, but should we do what we can?

Some estimates peg this cost at upwards of $25B in health costs, lost work days(productivity), cleanup, premature deaths, etc.

Then there is the ethical angle--- can we justify children suffering with asthma, other respiratory ailments, etc. to save a buck or two? At what point do we value human life and health?

2016zeroemissions.pdf.pdf (lung.org)

 

[shutterbug]

How can anyone be surprised about inflation when the "market" is reacting to 12-15 months of pent up demand combined with limited supply? It seems like supply and demand to me... on steroids.

Don't think that pent up demand explains food inflation. I don't know about you, but I was always buying food. Even during lock downs.

 

[EaglesPDX]

Cancel all credits and let the car companies compete with Tesla on an even playing field.

Ah...so Teslas gets $5B in EV tax credits but tries to shut the door on other car mfgs getting similar Federal boost....how Muskian. The creeper moves to TX so he doesn't have to pay the taxes that pay off all the loans and subsidies Tesla has received over the years.

Point of the EV tax credit is to get people to buy zero emissions vehicles. We are far behind on zero emissions and reducing green house gas emissions so we have to RAISE the EV tax credit. $10k for all zero emissions. Additional $5k if made in US. Another $5k if plant pays top wages and benefits and scale that down was auto worker wages go down. EV's are about $15k more than equivalent ICE, we need to even that out.

 

[EaglesPDX]

The biggest polluter in the world by a large margin is China.

The biggest polluter and contributor to global warming is the US. While China has caught up to US in current emissions, US has 100 years of industrial emissions head start. Plus China's per capita emissions are 7 tons, US is 15 tons. Fair to say if US matched China's per capita, US would reduce it's emissions 50%.

It is the legit argument of developing nations like China that they are being asked to build up an industrial base with much greater restraints than in US and EU had in their developmental years. Also, another county's emissions don't give a country a pass. Each country has to reduce green house gas emissions. US, since it contributed so much to the problem and is so wealthy, should lead the way, not hide behind false comparisons.

China also leads in sustainable energy solutions from EV's to electric trains (12,000 miles vs. US 1,200 miles of high speed electric trains) to solar panels to inverters to batteries to wind mills.

 

[AgieF150]

Ah...so Teslas gets $5B in EV tax credits but tries to shut the door on other car mfgs getting similar Federal boost....how Muskian. The creeper moves to TX so he doesn't have to pay the taxes that pay off all the loans and subsidies Tesla has received over the years.

Point of the EV tax credit is to get people to buy zero emissions vehicles. We are far behind on zero emissions and reducing green house gas emissions so we have to RAISE the EV tax credit. $10k for all zero emissions. Additional $5k if made in US. Another $5k if plant pays top wages and benefits and scale that down was auto worker wages go down. EV's are about $15k more than equivalent ICE, we need to even that out.

Why not give a free EV to everybody, saying saying ?‍

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